S9E10: A 40-year mission, with Frank Millar (CEO, CPI)

An episode of The Impact Multiplier CEO Podcast

S9E10: A 40-year mission, with Frank Millar (CEO, CPI)

In this episode Richard talks with Frank Millar. Frank is CEO of CPI, a technology innovation centre that acts as a catalyst bringing together academia, businesses, government and investors to translate bright ideas and research into the marketplace.

We're continuing our season "Mission-Driven CEOs". Top Chief Execs talk about the impact they want to make beyond just the financials - in terms of the company mission and their personal leadership legacy - and how they put that into practice on a daily basis. 

In this conversation, you’ll learn:

  • Why working for a successful technology company set Frank on a whole new path
  • The importance of 'place' and the '40 year' social purpose at the heart of CPI's mission
  • How conflict gets wasted, and the 'triangle strategy' to think differently about conflict situations
  • How ecosystems create value, and the CEO's role in building increasingly valuable relationships

"It's easier to tell a story than talk about a strategy!"

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Transcript

Richard Medcalf
Hello Frank, Welcome to the show.

Frank Millar
Hi Richard, Good morning. Delighted to be here.

Richard Medcalf
This is gonna be fun. I'm really curious to get to find out what this mysterious organization is called CPI. It kind of sounds like it might be some kind of spy agency or intergovernmental. I don't know, mission Impossible kind of unit, but possibly it's not. So before we dive into you, I know you that you've executive, I know you've you've on this on a bit of a mission as a result of this but before we get into that, yeah, explain that a bit. What is CPI?

Frank Millar
Sure, okay, well, we are not the consumer prices index, which if you Google CPI, that's what you'll find. So we'll come to that later. We're a business we focus on disruptive, transformative, whatever called Market creating deep tech innovation and just to just to uncouple, that a little bit, we're talking about supporting companies of all sizes, through what are medium and long term innovation cycles. So that's five to 15 years, typically. So these are long innovation cycles, where companies are bringing new concepts, new processes, new products to market and I would differentiate that from the incremental innovation that most companies are capable of doing in and of themselves.

Richard Medcalf
Right. These are kind of places, these are innovations where private investors are going to find that a long time frame for their payback, right, but there's a sign of market Yeah, finding technology shifts.

Frank Millar
Big different technology shifts and they tend to be from, you know, the way a system has developed or the way a product cycle is developed and then a recognition that there's a big disruption needed. I'll give you an example is we do a lot of work in health care and very specifically in pharmaceutical manufacturing and a few years ago, the pharmaceutical industry gathered in there sort of industry body and so there's a way that we are conducting manufacturing, which we can see is not going to support the personalization of future pharmaceuticals and so we need to completely rethink our manufacturing technologies, and all manufacturing processes. Now, you know, we've all learned through the pandemic, how critical quality, safety, regulatory compliance is. So you can imagine in organizations like that, you don't just get to change things overnight, you have to go through a very considered and bringing new technology and is, is a carefully considered process. So what we've been able to do is to gather that motivation in the industry and say, Look, we are an organization that can combine your interests, we can use, you know, a genuine interest from the public sector to say it is in our interests to keep pharmaceutical manufacturing in this country. You know, adding value, the contribution of access to employment contributes, makes the economy, we don't want to see the UK lose that we want to see that anchored in the UK. So let's work together, let's form this innovation ecosystem, if you like, in order to transform, and bring that level of innovation into that industry. So here we are about five years later, having done a huge amount of work and with an established way of working, we've got equipment. Now we've got trained engineers and scientists, we've got industry aligned around a series of what we call grand challenges that the big programs that they wanted to deliver and we now have a landscape in front of us that says we we can now move into that implementation phase, and really transform the way that that that industry will manufacture over the next 1015 20 years. Right. So this is really about aligning different players across the whole ecosystem. It's an individual company who's got one individual technology. That's right. So actually, it's very much about ecosystems and if you if you if you think about the I've mentioned pharmaceutical manufacturing, if you think about you know what we need to do in terms of working with supply chains to enable them to adopt more sustainable materials, processes, technologies, in order to meet you know, their scope, three emissions, regulation and expectations, what their customers are demanding from them. These are big long term disruptions and they can only really be achieved with huge partnerships and I think that's one of our one of our particular skills is being the convener. The neutral part but you can bring all of those thinking and ideas together.

Richard Medcalf
Yeah, fascinating. So tell me about how you got involved in this because I know you have a personal background in the military and then in the oil and gas sector. So how did you end up getting involved in the world of business innovation and deep tech? And possibly even more than that, how did you get involved is why did you get involved?

Frank Millar
So the how is probably the how, and the Why are certain, I'm not quite sure which came first and they still sort of intersect with each other. I had had he say, I had a career in I'm an engineer, by background. So I've always had a career in some form of, of technology, or, you know, large, large, large engineering projects and I suppose I got to the point where, you know, we were taking some of the technology that we had, I was working for a company in Manchester, we were taking that technology all over the world and I was seeing, it's, you know, you could you could see it, sunset was coming. You know, we'd had it on patient for a long time. We we'd refreshed it but the market had moved on, and we were going to have to reinvent it and I it piqued my curiosity for what we're who to who invents new technology, where does it come from, having always been a user of it's not an inventor of its and via slightly Securitas route that took me to CPI and that's how I came to join CPI. I originally joined as the operations director, and at a time when the business was scaling. So what I brought actually was, was more commercial skill and experience of working in, in a more sort of contracting environment and so, you know, that's what I think CPI needed for me and I then I think, grew to appreciate that this. This was the company that was going to provide the answers to that question, which is, where does new technology come from? We scale it and how do we take it to the point where a company like the one I've been working for, could use it?

Richard Medcalf
So let me dive in. It's interesting, you you came in with more commercial aspects and then obviously, a couple of years later, you are promoted to this chief executive role? Why? So what was what were they looking for? You know, what do they see in your particular profile? Do you think that they made them think, Oh, actually, we need Frank in this role.

Frank Millar
I think, I brought a lot of, you know, change management skills to the business and we were, we were stepping into some pretty big programs and so I think I was able to sort of, I think, demonstrate that there's, there's a generalist competence that's really needed in this role. We have 600 plus fantastic scientists, engineers, business professionals, incredible people. That's a big organization and there's a lot of leadership needed. There's a lot of generalist skill needed, that probably balanced with the, you've got to be curious about the technology, you've got to love the technology, you've got to you've got to be immersed in the world that CPI works in and I think it was probably, I hope, and I hope I still can demonstrate the ability to balance those two, those two worlds, if you like.

Richard Medcalf
But yeah, so the world where they have lots of technology competency, they needed somebody to bring the change.

Frank Millar
Yeah. Being the change. Yeah, the next the next, I think the company is 20 years old and in 2024. You know, Nigel, my predecessor had started the company, you know, so he'd taken it through this fantastic journey and of course, my job was then to take it is to take it to the next the next phase, the next stage of growth. So it was a very logical point of, of passing the baton tonight at that moment.

Richard Medcalf
And so it just to kind of distill that down so at this stage, having been in obviously being involved in exploring this and getting into it, what's what's now your mission at this point in your career, you know, how do you how do you see that?

Frank Millar
I mean, CPI fills it fills a fantastic purpose. You know, we are here to help companies develop prove scale up and commercialize technology. Our Why is is the social and the economic consequences, the impact that we can deliver. So I very much committed CPI to the journey of a social enterprise. and describe ourselves as a social enterprise. So for me taking CPI to a scale where science and technology are seen as being a fundamental components of a fairer economy, you know, think of it as the next industrial revolution, if you like, near where science and technology are playing a role in that and CPI is demonstrating how we do that in a really, you know, with a real social conscience and we are, we're really concerned for impact. We want to see how that, you know, I think about the places that we work, you know, we're, we grew up we grew up in Teesside, you know, on the back of ici, you know, one time I was employed to 30,000 people in Teesside. You know, that's mind blowing. When you think about that. Now, two sides on a fantastic journey of rediscovery and reinvention, we work in Glasgow, where our medicines, manufacturing facilities, again, another great city, around which the Industrial Revolution sort of grew. So for me are a lot of our purposes. You know, these ecosystems are also about places, they're about people, and their experience of work and, and, you know, bringing science and technology into those ecosystems and saying, This is a really fantastic place to, for you to aspire to grow and to see that you can contribute to your own your own region. So there's a lot of, there's a lot of, I would call it a place based center center to our thinking in being able to demonstrate that impact.

Richard Medcalf
Yeah. Building ecosystems and I really, yeah, I already see that and so that's the CPI purpose and I think you've articulated it really, really well and that, you know, it is exciting to be part of that. How would you describe the personal mission that you're on as a business leader at this point, what's the legacy that you'd like to create?

Frank Millar
I mean, I think it's sits very clearly in that in, you know, bringing that sort of, you know, that that central social purpose, if you like, and, you know, I'd like to look back in, you know, however many years time and look at places like Teesside and Glasgow, and, you know, parts of the Northwest, and, you know, having, you know, I started my industrial career in the shipyards of Newcastle, you know, you find yourself really rooted in the history and culture of industrial development and I'd like to look back and think I had a hand in the transition of that, you know, it's very clear that, you know, the digital world, you know, global economy, you know, we have to find a way of, I'd like to see the UK with a more goods based economy, not just a better balance between goods and services and I'd like to see that CPI and the my leadership had a role in in cementing that next industrial revolution, in those places that you know, very particularly I have benefited from the kind of career that those places have given me. So there's a legacy of, of passing on, passing on the place in good shape, or in better shape than you found it and I think CPR is a fantastic place for doing that.

Richard Medcalf
Yeah. So I'm starting to kind of just think about as you're on that mission, what what are perhaps one or two things that energize and excite you at the moment, right, and drive you forward? And then what are two things that drain you? Right, slow you down, frustrate you? What, what's the highs and the lows at the moment for you?

Frank Millar
I think one of the highs at the moment is we are part of a national network, an organization called the high value manufacturing catapult and that was set up about 10 years ago and it was set up. If you're familiar with the Fraunhofer institutes in Germany, you know, this idea of research translation, you know, we do great things in universities, we have fantastic research capability. How do we translate that so the high value manufacturing catapult was set up to really catalyze and accelerate that translation, and those who set it up, you know, so this is a 40 year mission, you know, 40 years to to get this to the to the scale. So that's the journey we're on. We're 10 years old, it was about the 10 year point where we hit locked it up we hit the pandemic and lockdown and everything else. So we all We all, you know, did what we needed to do but at the same time, I think we recognized a moment where we needed to redefine our purpose, we needed to be really, really clear 10 years in, what was the next 10 years going to look like and not drift into it? Right. So we spent a lot of time over again, one of the painful benefits of the pandemic was, you know, a group of CEOs being able to spend time together on Zoom, you know, and really work really intentionally intensively together with a fantastic consultancy a company called Three horizons who helped us rethink our strategy and we are now you know, taking that strategy into action and working across UK manufacturing, with government and looking at even bigger ecosystems, to tackle things like net zero, and really, really getting into what's the truth of the challenge that industry faces and what's on next 10 years in really embracing that and that is massively energizing, to be in to be, you know, working with a program of that scale. So that, you know, that that wraps in all of the capabilities that CPI has, it brings us into into partnership with lots of other organizations and it also now is, you know, it is concentrating itself into, you know, what I talked about before, this is this place based agenda, you know, where you can see the power of that national capability being focused on particular regions, and being able to make a real difference and so that, that really does get you out of bed in the morning. That's, that's fantastic. It's, it's, you know, it's, it's many of us won't see this journey through, you know, it's, but you feel like you're laying the road for, for what's possible. Next.

Richard Medcalf
Yeah, let's flip over to that such a big one. I think it's very, very good competitors. Leave it on that one. What's pepsin? It's a drain on you, you know, that you find more challenging in the moment.

Frank Millar

And I think I think I've always been, I've always hoped, and I believe sort of behaved in a way where conflict is a source of creative energy and so, you know, the skill of managing conflict, I think is a is a real, it's a leadership trait that I think is hard earned. So when I see conflicts sort of being wasted, if you like, or when I see that it is its conflict for the sake of win lose. I find that just sucks to me and it's finding the the energy to step up and say, Look, this conflict is we've got to find a useful way in here, which it's not about being comfortable. It's not about agreeing. It's about saying, having differences of opinion is a really, really important feature in in creation, innovation, and, you know, moving moving the agenda forward. I think a lot of our discourse in the public sector at the moment is obviously quite challenged by that and I just, you know, I suppose I, I find that it requires more energy as leaders to bring the counterpoint to that and to say, almost Park, that that's a that's, that's not how we will will will progress, we will use our conflict well but the energy demand to get to that level is high.

Richard Medcalf
Yeah, I need to reframe those discussions, right and to find a new way, when I'm working with people will often say, you know, if it's like a, an arm wrestle, right, you know, it's you're really in a losing situation? And can you redefine it as a triangle that I just say, right, rather than a lever is a triangle where both of you are observing this, this issue? And kind of going, Oh, look, we're conflicted. You know, we're kind of having conflict around this issue but we don't quite agree and yet we know that, in some sense, we're looking at, you know, we want the same, same outcome. What do you make of there? How do we, you know, how are we going to move that forward? And starting to kind of CO create and collaborate or even on the conflict itself? And how do we actually overcome this conflict? You know, kind of taking that meta level? To kind of reflect on that.

Frank Millar
Yeah. I think I think you can collaborate. This it's, you know, it's the it's the wisdom to acknowledge that it's there and to to be able to put your your you know, whatever is in the room, is it an ego? Is it A, is it a, you know, a an immovable belief, whatever it is to put those things to one side and say, they're just real things, but but we have a responsibility as leaders You know, to to set those aside and find a way in which, you know, we come out of this in better shape. Some days, it's easier than others.

Richard Medcalf
Yeah, absolutely. So, the right, yeah, I love this, I say that this mission that you're on, and that, you know, you're so fired up about the 40 year vision, I suppose, right to create this technology driven goods based economy and to revitalize that. How do you mobilize people around that vision? You know, what's your role as chief executive? Or, you know, what do you find? There's been working where do you personally struggle sometimes what comes up for you, as I talk about that idea of, of taking people on the journey.

Frank Millar
I think I'm a great believer in the power of stories. I think I sort of, I, I find it easier to tell a story than I do to this, how they describe a strategy. So so so I default to stories quite a lot. Actually, to the extent that I asked my fantastic energizing, creative marketing communications team, and I said, look, can we can, how do we help everybody else? You know, with the art of storytelling, so we've actually done a piece of work inside the company about storytelling. So I think the first thing is, is is, you know, have those stories, because they are much more relatable than perhaps restating a particular, you know, maybe restating a crafted vision, it's more, it's more internalized to the after that, you know, through the lens of a story, I think the other thing I find is that it's, you have this constant validation. So it doesn't matter what you say, it's what's played back to you, that matters. So, so that the balance between speaking and listening, and, and really, really hearing what's being played back when you've told the story, or try to describe a vision, you know, describe the way that, you know, we want the company to develop, what's our destination, you're constantly iterating with the, the feedback loop. And I think really, really, really paying attention to that and I think having the humility to recognize that it's a, it is a constant journey to keep that sort of that sense of vision. I also, just this time is also where I think to myself, you know, what, just just don't worry about the vision. The vision is the destination. The culture is the journey. So spend time, you know, really intentionally working on and thinking about culture, you will always have the vision and insight, it won't you won't leave you it won't vanish in the midst, it will always be there. Your culture is far more mercurial I think and needs needs that sort of needs that needs your attention, to spend time there and and trust that that will take you to the vision. That's that's a sort of a something I find is more I find that more practical as a, you know, sort of leadership actions.

Richard Medcalf
Yeah and I love that because the vision is in the future. Right. So actually, it's quite an actionable in some sense. The reality is you have people and they have to work together and align and that's more around culture, right? One of my phrases is worry a bit less about strategy plus execution, and worry a bit more about alignment and leadership because those linemen leadership is how you actually make strategy and execution in reality.

Frank Millar
Yeah, yeah, great.

Richard Medcalf
Culture, obviously, because we are so entwined. Hey, this is a really interesting conversation, I want to kind of move on, perhaps to our quickfire questions that I'm always keen to kind of get under the surface of, of leaders to find out what's kind of formed them or shape them. So what's their favorite quote that you live by or that you bore all your team with on a regular basis?

Frank Millar
So this is quite long, but I was reading a book by a guy called Vladimir penyakit. book called pomskies. private army. It's a it's a yawn. It's a fascinating story about something that happened in the Second World War. But there's a I took a photograph of this page and I keep it on my phone, because I just think it's an absolutely fantastic description of leadership. So here we go. It goes like this. He's talking about his immediate, you know, immediate team is immediately shipped. When he says I could open my heart to them both, and yet lose none of my authority, I was the spared the loneliness which induces a dangerous autocratic pigheadedness. In so many commanders incapable of choosing spoken confidence with them as with them, I was by no means always right, they could not take that acquiescence for granted and they have to consider my decisions more carefully than if my orders had invariably been more and I just found that paragraph, it's so long quote, but I just think that's absolutely brilliant summary of what it is to be a leader and to keep yourself in a place where you're just not comfortable, you know, you just just constantly have that guy go back to conflict to go back to, you know, that that sense of of the, you know, the purpose is always going to be challenging and to don't find yourself in a place where the people around you make you feel comfortable, they should make you feel challenged. So I love that quote about that tea.

Richard Medcalf
Yeah, no, I love it. What came to me as you were speaking to that was this point of ethic, instead of opening your heart or words to that effect, which is really interesting, because I think a lot of us, we can be very intellectual and, you know, hey, I, you know, studied at Oxford and payment strategy consultant, and you know, you had to be the smartest person in the room and that was kind of a lot of people, we find that that's how we build our careers is by that side of things, but I really have been learning myself and see in my clients, the power of actually opening up your heart, as well as bringing intellectual firepower. Yeah, I think that's a source of power of impact, that a lot of leaders haven't actually explored that much. It's very, very analytical and I think when you actually share your heart,

Frank Millar
it's your business businesses or relational activity, you know, we, we, we, we conducted with people, and I think bringing the bringing the person into the, into the room is is is not, you know, is a good thing, you know, who we are. What makes us what makes us tick, you know, I think that's a very important trait in in in business.

Richard Medcalf
Yeah. What about a book? What's the book? Well, I guess this has been one book, another book of business, but we've kind of influenced you and how you go about things.

Frank Millar
And I am not a great student of business books, I have to say.

Richard Medcalf
Might be another book.

Frank Millar
Yeah, there's a book I read recently. It took a bit getting through, it's quite hard read. It's called the march of folly by an American historian lady called Barbara Tishman. I think I've pronounced the surname correctly and that's it's a really interesting book about this, this this concept of wooden headedness, which is you can you can create a policy, and then you can get all of the signals that you could ever need, that that policy was completely wrong and yet, you still persist in following that policy to your ultimate destruction and she starts in the Trojan Wars, and she works through the Renaissance popes and then into, you know, Britain and America, you know, and that sort of colonial period and then she goes on to Vietnam. I would love her to write a sequel. I think we probably had a few years of some very interesting, you know, but it's a, I mean, she's a fantastic historian, and but you just take so much from from history and then there's those that you've makes you realize that we reinvent our folly, as frequently as we reinvent, always.

Richard Medcalf
Yeah, yeah. It's interesting. I've been doing quite a lot of work recently on. Yeah, I'm stressed testing strategy, because that, again, within business, there's lots of plans that are written and get signed off, and don't deliver, right and often, it's because they haven't actually undergone the stress testing before people give us so much in a rush to get on an execute and make things happen. That so many plants have, you know, start off and crash and burn or diet or die a quiet death, and I can be more strategic and stress testing those plans. So it's really, really important to just kind of related to that topic, I think.

Frank Millar
Yeah. It is It's nothing. It's just an it's the it's the it's the validation through feedback as well, you know, that is paying attention to that and being able to put what you thought was the truth to one side, when the evidence is that's not the troops.

Richard Medcalf
Yeah and obviously the military background, you know, the whole red team idea, right of having, you know, conflicting. Yeah, totally right. To actually stress test these things. Great. Well, one of the things that I do ask, you know, is really around who inspires you? As a leader? You know, many of our best guests on the show come from referrals. In fact, you know, I think you were you came from that. Yeah. Richard, so I'm kind of curious, you know, who's an impactful CEO who know that, you know, you know, in your world who inspires you, again, who might be a great guest? Or somebody who's got two big things?

Frank Millar
Yeah, I think I think somebody who would be fascinating to talk to some Scott White, who is the CEO of a company called pragmatic. So we've worked with pragmatic for about 10 years now, but Scott has steered that company, he's a very, very experienced, wise strategist and he stayed that company, you know, working in a market that is, is, you know, is full of large, established players and he's, he's, he's navigated this disruptive technology, to a point now where they are, you know, they really are on the cusp of, of, of a world scale operation. So I think Scott. I always learn something when I talk to Scott, I always take something away from that those meetings thinking, well, I'd hadn't thought of that, you know, so he's a very inspirational individual.

Richard Medcalf
Yeah, that's influenced. Right? When you when you go for meeting thinking that wow, had a new perspective and new insights. Somebody once said, your influence is helping people to think differently. If you actually offer something which gets people to think differently. That's actually how

Frank Millar
Change happens. Yeah.

Richard Medcalf
Yeah. So no matter how much you have achieved, there's always a next level to get to. So where do you go from here as a business, you know, what CPI is, next level? What's going to make, you know, be your next wave of impact?

Frank Millar
Interesting. We've, we've, we've spent over the last six months or so just just working through our strategy again and, and looking at that next level, what does that what does that next level look like and I think what's what's helpful is, it's I think it's validated to us that we are, we're definitely on the right road. I think it's scale, I think, I think to be able to operate in the way that we want to, and I think what the economy needs from us, particularly talking about those places, I think we we need to develop a whole new range of skills, to convene at an even greater level in a, you know, a wider set of technologies, a broader set of stakeholders and I think that that, you know, still with that social enterprise, at our heart, in our heart, there is a is a new cohort of capability, I think that CPI is going to get through a combination of growing and acquiring those skills, to be able to convene at a at a national level. So, you know, I see that that's a, that's our route to greater impact is to is to really boost our capacity to convene with the same credibility that we've that we've built over the last, you know, 1617 years.

Richard Medcalf
And what will you have to do differently, to multiply your impact as part of that growth?

Frank Millar
It's, it's the tyranny of, of, you know, am I busy doing the right things? You know, any, we can all be busy, it's, it's the choices, I think it's looking at the diary, looking at the stakeholders and thinking, right, you know, where, where should I? Where should I be putting my time and where are the places where, you know, my thinking is, is is not challenged enough is not different enough? Who should I be spending time with, who wouldn't naturally fall out of the, you know, the sort of the pattern of the week to week and the month to month, you know, business? So, I think it's finding those places for different and more challenging conversations, you know, and finding those within the stakeholders that I think are going to be really meaningful. I mean, we're doing a lot more work with investment community now than we did say, three or four years ago and, you know, just from some of the time I've spent with investors, I can see that they, you know, they are extremely, you know, focused on motivated, and, you know, sometimes finding the the complementary elements of that motivation, but also recognizing the differences in those motivations. You know, I can often go into a meeting thinking, I think these are a great set of ideas and find that they will say, No, every single one of those ideas is absolutely rubbish. These are a better set of ideas and so you think, Wow, that's a really, really interesting, you know, completely different set of views. Because what they're looking for is, is I have interpreted as different from from, from what I'm trying to gain from that, you know, that sort of relationship or opportunity. So I think spending time with people like that will will lift my head, and elevate my thinking to set up to go to this next scale, there's a there's a wider group of stakeholders a different, different set of thinking that we will need.

Richard Medcalf
Yeah, that's what I was really thinking. So during our conversation coming, what's coming up for me was who are the you know, who are the Bucha the phone calls that you're afraid to make right now? I know that feel a bit edgy, right? And feel you don't quite have the credibility or the What are you gonna say to these people? But normally, it's that I always like to say, what's the phone call that's going to change everything that you need to be in? Because you have a clear mission? You have a an engine that's delivering that I'm sure there's always tweaks and upgrades you need to make on how you're doing things but yeah, in kind of creating more and more powerful ecosystems, I think you're right, you've nailed some some great points there but how do you challenge your own thinking? How do you? Yeah, I've leveled where you focusing and the relationships your view your with, I think, I think it's great for all of us actually, to ask that. I mean, it's why we say, you know, who the community, you know, what are the communities that you're part of? What are the conversations you have part of? Where do you put your attention in the day? And yeah, who is it who's really speaking to you the unvarnished truth? Because yes, yeah. It's so easy to have conversations that are not challenging and the way the way, thank you for this, this great discussion. If people want to find more out about you, or about CPI? How do they do that?

Frank Millar
I think just just head to the website but I'll give you the website, because it's because it's not just cpi.com. So it's www.uk-cpi.com and, you know, that's our go to place, we're on LinkedIn, Twitter, etc. But if you will find out about CPI, that's the place to start. Yeah.

Richard Medcalf
Perfect. Hey, well, Frank, thank you. Again, I think we've we've really looked covered a lot of ground today. I mean, we've covered under thinking, you know, we covered this whole mission in terms of being a good based economy, this place this focus on place, and how perhaps that gets overlooked very often in our current mindset. We've, we've talked about that power of conflict and how you adjust that we've, we've looked about, you know, how actually, science stories are better ways of getting to strategy than actually talking about the abstract principle passaggi thought about how culture is that's the vehicle to get to get to the destination of vision and then we've spent a bit of time here, I think talking a lot around. Yeah, how do you level the conversations as you want to build bigger and bigger ecosystems, and be in more impactful rooms if you like? So I think these are all fantastic insights, my conversation. So I just want to say thank you for your time and look forward to hearing hearing from you as you continue the journey and deliver on that 40 year vision.

Frank Millar
Fantastic. Thanks, Richard.

Richard Medcalf
Thanks a lot, Frank. Take care.

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