S10E06: Building ‘a company to inspire Europe’, with Darren Comber (CEO, Scott Brownrigg)

Richard Medcalf
Hi Darren and welcome to the show.

Darren Comber
Good morning, Richard. Thank you for having me.

Richard Medcalf
I'm going to enjoy this because I've already found out in just a few minutes of speaking with you that you've got a really different view for many leaders, I think around growth and what it means your company, Scott Brownrigg, has really been featured by the Financial Times in view of the growth and success he's had but what I understand for you is that the actual financial results are secondary to a large impact that you want to make in the world and this is The Impact Multiplier CEO Podcast, let's jump right in there and just go there. What is this growth that most excites you? Or what's the impact that most excites you about the business? Well, actually, first of all, tell us what's the business? Let's go? What's it all about? What gets you up in the morning?

Darren Comber
Right. So we're an architectural firm, we've got a long history, so we can trace our roots back to 1910. So the company's been around a long time, and over the decades, I guess it's fair to say it's changed enormously, to remain relevant. I think that's the key thing and it's a key theme that we've had about driving the business and driving growth in the business. So we have eight offices globally, where our head office is in common garden in in Endo Street and we have always had an international theme as a practice. So we were one of the first practices back in the 50s, to really push the boundaries and export design services and that's been a theme that's, that's run through the practice. In terms of growth, though, something we touched on it just in a sort of preamble before we started talking about it but as you ask the question, the, for an architectural practice, it isn't about staff complement the numbers, there's a defining characteristic. So it isn't just about are we the biggest in the world, it's for me, and for us, it's the defining characteristic is mean, has been more about the services and skills that we can provide, and the impact that that has on societal change, and our ability to match the needs on the global platform. So size is important in one respect to be a global player but in terms of does it have to be a prescribed number for us to be effective? No, it doesn't.

Richard Medcalf
So let me just play that back for a second and see, so what you're really saying is that the, the size and the growth that you've seen has been the outcome of this desire to bring new skills and services?

Darren Comber
Absolutely. Yeah, bringing bandwidth, additional bandwidth to the practice has been really important and I think that that's important for a number of reasons. One is that it, it makes the practice more diverse in terms of the skills that it can offer, the elements of influence, we can actually bring to the table as well but in other senses, it also is quite important that it makes us less vulnerable to the vagaries of the markets and that's really, really important is, as an architectural practice, we very much our fortunes are very much predetermined by the economy as most art but very much in the construction world and you know, where we sit, we do have to have a diverse platform from which to build and we found that in being an international player that is given us if you'd like some degree of installation, as markets have either developed in certain parts of the world and perhaps depressed in others but what is a constant is that the skills that we have are required and actually sought worldwide. So so that is the constant and the other moveable feasts have worked around that.

Richard Medcalf
Yeah. It's actually that portfolio piece you just mentioned, I think it's often key for companies over the long haul. In this series around sequence of scaling, I've seen repeatedly, this idea of almost all the companies have had some sort of portfolio, some kind of diversity that's held them right out different market shifts in different parts of the world. Let's first jump into your story. What I understand is when you took over the company, Scott Brownrigg, and when you actually went in and you bought it out, the company was pretty much on its knees. So what if you were going to tell us that story? When was that? What was the company when you found it and by way of comparison, where are you now perhaps in terms of revenues or whatever?

Darren Comber
Okay, well, I joined the practice obviously was very, very successful, leading up to through the 80s, many architectural practices were in the same position. In the 90s, we had some big projects that really took out a lot of profits of the company and it was a partnership at that time, a lot of partners left took a lot of money out of the company and as a result, the company had a significant debt at that time. So when I joined back in 95, the debt I think, was around about 3 million, which is a lot of money now, but it was an awful lot of money then and we were supported by the banks, after a while to trade out of that. We had a very small staff complement, I was just a junior, at that point, right but I saw an opportunity and I thought, you know, this, this practice has a really good brand and there was an opportunity to be part of a team. So I definitely wouldn't clay lay claim to I was the one that rebuilt it solely, but I was willing to be part of that team that would build on the great foundations and the heritage brand that Scott Brownrigg has always enjoyed so. So it's more about the opportunity rather than the a single point in time then and then over that period of time, we looked at how we could reshape the business, what were the things we needed, how do how can we include people in as part of that journey, make it more attainable to a wider network of people within the business as well. So going from a partnership, we then transitioned into a limited company, where the shareholding was quite narrow, just to the board directors and I wasn't on the board at that time and so I had an insight into thinking, well, this isn't really sort of equitable, if you want buy in, there was an opportunity to get more more shareholders across the business. So over time, and when I joined the boards, I've sat on the board now for 20 years. So I've seen quite a lot of coming going and 12 those years. So I've been chief executive, but it was really my desire to widen out share ownership to get participation. So shareholder participation and it really did work because about by the time at its height, we had about a third of the company's shareholders, and everybody had that real sense of ownership and I think the the ownership is something that I always felt quite passionate about, because for many owning shares is a statement of ambition and that ambition, I think can be something that you can really then translate into actions and positive actions. So we've been a team for a long time, I think it's fair to say the ownership was a an EBT. So we transitioned partnership to a limited company, which was administered through an EBT and in 2021. So last year, we transitioned to a full e OTS 100%, employee ownership trust, and that's brought an even wider dynamic now, that leads to you know, an enhanced succession strategy for the business. So yeah, we've we've come along the journey really is has been one of wanting to, I guess, play with the play in a scenario where everybody is, has the ability to be a master of their own destinies, the output can be measured by the input that goes into it. So I, you know, I've always worked quite hard, as many, many people do but sometimes you don't see how but but as long as you're satisfied that you've done the best you can, then you know, we see a different picture and where the practice is now. So we went from, you know, very small practice, we had only 13 staff when I joined in London, we I think they'd total compliment about 40 they had quite a small turnover and now we are in the top 100 architects in the world, we ranked in the top 100 in the world, we're in the top 20 in the UK and we have eight offices globally, including New York, Singapore, Amsterdam, London, and then a series of other offices. So we do have now a very global reach and we're a stable company, we've invested we bought our own property. So we've built a platform from which we've got real financial stability and that has really helped us iron out the peaks of Trump peaks and troughs of the economic market, to have that stability in the business and that allows us to do the things that we really want to do and that is essentially design buildings and infrastructure and environments that people can enjoy.

Richard Medcalf
Yeah, that's great story. Yeah, and getting to that place where you say you've got the freedom to do those things, without looking over your shoulder, or, you know, this quarter by itself or whatever it happens to be, which is great for in an uncertain world and what about out. What did you do really well, looking back, you know, obviously, ownerships is a big theme and I think it's great because often people talk about creating a sense of ownership. Well, one shortcut to doing that is to actually make people owners, right. Which is, which is fantastic and I can see how that plays out for you. What are the other things you think looking back would, you know, are real parts of your success formula that you've been able to roll out?

Darren Comber
So I get this a thought. So I guess the one of the biggest things that I think we have done well, and that is acknowledging that many people have contributed to this, I've really just been the conductor. In many respects on this, people have contributed in enormous ways but what we've done is, as a practice is we've added skills diversified our offer, we open new offices, and businesses, secured high profile projects and within that defined your ownership structure, it gave us the opportunity to generally look forward. So we're always looking forward. I think you mentioned I don't look over my shoulder, I'm constantly looking over my shoulder was behind is what we want but I think that ability to look forwards really important and there's three key areas that have built that. The first one is what I would define as expansion aligned with the business vision and we built that on the principle of three horizons. So horizon one, obviously, is, is the core business. Horizon two is where we extended that core business and horizon three is the bit that I like to think that sometimes I'm in is where the crazy entrepreneurs are looking at things that we may never do but if we needed to explore them to see whether they would, they would work for us. So we created our own horizons, through new avenues of interest that added width to what we have done and that gave us an enduring practice, rather than something that's quite temporary and chasing, you know, fashions. We wanted something to look at what's relevant in society, not just today but where's it moving and what what added skills could we need to meet the demands? And, and that's really, really quite important that trying to, or, or remaining relevant is probably one of the most important characteristics and why we've been around over perhaps 100 years and for that one, I would, you know, add in things like new technologies we've embraced, that are particularly relevant to the built environment and we've done that through links with other businesses as well. So outside of architectures, so a good example, would be looking into the world of formula one and seeing what they do and we have our own digital twin business. Now, that's not new, a digital twin isn't new in certain areas but in the built environment, it is very new and it isn't something that is mainstream at the moment, we have a business, the digital twin unit was set up specifically to look at the built environment. So that added bandwidth to what we did. I guess the second one is focusing then on capability, talent and succession. So what I mean by that is obviously the capability of the business to deliver the strategy and vision through identifying what our capabilities are, and then putting those into format plans and, and we've always had a view on his, he's looking towards what our goals and visions are, and then designing the company to match that rather than the other way around looking at the skills we have and saying, well, okay, well, can we go with that? So we've always had that as a goal.

Richard Medcalf
That's what I actually call your future back thinking right? After me, you know, I looked about future back and outside in, or what the external environment we're in, how's it changing, and then work from that, where often otherwise, we look at what resources existing capabilities, what to do next and that's a different a different approach.

Darren Comber
Indeed, indeed and I think to do that as well. We focused on people and our product and where we have looked to replace individuals at certain time people come and go, that's a natural thing to have changed in business, and we haven't sought to then just replace and replicate skills. What we look to do is add diversity. So we haven't tried to just find people in our own image is about saying, Well, okay, that there's a whole raft of different skills out there and if we can embrace them, and again, as I say, they're not just in architecture, and all Lane architects, they're in different areas and then the third item, which I'd probably which is the most important for us as architects is our product and what we've done there is really this vertical and horizontal expansion of our products. So it aligns in a way to what I talked about with the three horizons but so they all sort of turn around each other because expansion of our core services has been absolutely fundamental to building the business.

Richard Medcalf
Yeah, I love the way that you've really framed that out in such three nice ways, right? You've got this time dimension, you've got this kind of resources, depth dimension, I guess, in terms of the capability, and then you've got you What are you actually bringing to market in terms of the product will be an example perhaps of you're one of those where you, which might not have felt like a risk at the time? Why didn't mean a bit difficult for you to do? Or you had some internal doubts about but actually paid off? You know, is there something there where you think, am I even doing the right thing here and yet, time prove to you right?

Darren Comber
Yeah, I think I think that will be our international expansion, I guess. I think the products, a lot of the things we're doing, they feed into each other so well, that their businesses in their own right but also they support what we do, as architects, but I think one of the key both strengths, and actually one of the difficulties we had was our international expansion and, and I always sort of worked around this view that, you know, first and foremost, you got to have a plan. I think everybody sort of, you know, would subscribe to that but I read a really quite nice quote from somebody once about, you know, maintaining a plan and the reason like this, the nicest thing about not having a plan is that failure comes as a complete surprise but he's not preceded by a period of worry, and depression and it was written by a chap called John Preston from Boston University and I always muse on that because you know, there's positives and negatives and everything. It's kind of saying yet, if you haven't got a plan, least you haven't got to worry about it but the key thing for me is that having a plan, and the reason why that's actually quite relevant is we define our five year plan, but we make it flexible enough that things change over a period of five years. So it isn't so rigid, that you can't say, okay, well, you know, we need to change course now. So we'll have defining qualities within there that has to that we have to mean, but one of those and coming bringing it back, I guess, to the international dimension, internationally has been something that we've been committed to about developing our international footprint and what we've learned over time, is that we needed to be smarter at doing it. So the ability to go into an international market and open a new studio might sound well, that's really easy, isn't it, you just pitch up and you open up and everyone says are great Brits are here and you know, certainly, well, that's not the case at all and I think because we tried to do over the over time with our own funds as well, that's presented certain challenges, because it's difficult to grow when you are restricted by the capital that you have on offer. We have been successful, we've achieved it, but it's taken longer than I would have liked in many of those areas. So was, if I was doing that, again, we've we've we've chosen to do it under a different model now, where we have a much smaller footprint and we track everything back to the UK as well. So we're now a very integrated company, rather than operating as silos. It's something that we've never wanted to do. So we we've avoided that silo mentality and we have a what's called one Scott Brownrigg. So everybody is part of the same company. It doesn't matter where your studio might be, whether it's in Amsterdam, whether it's in New York, Singapore, you will share resources and this skills go to where they're required, rather than trying to develop a market in a particular area. So we found that that's more has been considerably more successful for us over time rather than the idea of developing a studio in a market and Trump trying to replicate what we had in the UK.

Richard Medcalf
Right. Yeah, I get it. Yeah. So you're able to flex around demand internationally a bit more nicely.

Darren Comber
Indeed. Yeah.

Richard Medcalf
It's really interesting. I've seen both of these things coming out, I think in professional services. My background was in consulting, professional services as well and I definitely saw stage of development that company was that definitely the integrated model made a lot of sense and we're really well on the other I've seen businesses and interviewed people on this podcast, who've done extraordinary well, with a very let 1000 Flowers bloom kind of approach, which prioritizes entrepreneurial zeal and empowerment in different regions. So it's really interesting how both models can, can work but I think you have to commit to the right mindset to a model, and an align around that. Was anything that you did that looking back, you think was a mistake, or it really made growth painful, you know, a lesson to avoid, if you like, from your, your long and illustrious journey.

Darren Comber
I think it's a no obvious things like no, never taking anything for granted. You know, sort of the ability to acknowledge that the practice has history is a very core benefit, but it can actually hold you back as well. So a lot of people, we were very fortunate that the brand is well known in the architectural circle, but it's what it was known for and that's what's really important that, you know, yes, having a brand and these two things that I guess one times, I've often said, Well, it's better better to be known for something then not be known at all, which you've heard many times but I think, where you want to position your brand is really, really important, and I think this is where we've, if I go back, you know, maybe a decade or perhaps longer, we were known for certain things that weren't really where we wanted to take the vision of the practice. So we had that, in a sense, it held us back. So we made reference to it, and it was it opened doors, but actually people thought we did something different. So we've had to change over time. So So I guess it wasn't necessarily a bad thing but it's something we acknowledge that if you really want to be in a different place, you really do have to be aware that people perceive you for a certain thing.

Richard Medcalf
But actually, perception is such an interesting thing. When I, when I work. Often I've asked to come in working with people in the leadership team who, who might need to work on key behavior, for example, to really, you know, fulfill their potential and, and often there's two stages, one of which is the actual shift in behavior but the second is a shift in perception because even when we change what we're up to, if they called it around with everyone's too busy thinking about themselves to really notice that you've changed that applies to a company, it applies to individuals, it applies to all sorts of things and actually managing perception, helping perception catch up with reality, you know, is the essential part of the process, because without that, you might be doing all these other things, but people don't know, they don't realize, or they still have the same emotional reaction towards you.

Darren Comber
Or I think, you know, the, it's, you know, we're obviously talking about, you know, impact multipliers and this is one of the key things to me that you know, it has an exponential impact if you like that by taking the practice and, and outwardly branding it into the vision that you want it to go into them. Obviously, you can attract more talent, best talent, you can retain the talent you have but also you operate, then in the markets, you really want to have one of the key things for us and sustainability has really come on to the world stage in the last maybe five years but I'll go back to 20 years ago, when we really invested in it, we were designing things like the environment at his headquarters down in South Oxfordshire, it was it was in a time when it wasn't on anybody's radar but we've built on that and so now we respected within our own profession, that we are somebody that you know, haven't just jumped on something and thought Great, this is really something good to do. This is something that we've invested in over time. So we have a depth of knowledge, and, and a desire to go somewhere and to make that positive impact in everything that we do. Whether it be through carbon reduction, whether it be through sustainable environments, how you get there, you know, what you do when you when you're there, all of those things are completely embedded and that's been a key part of the golden thread of Scott Brownrigg for decades now and and now we're seeing that actually, the vision that we have is one that is being embraced but we've all got a long way to go. So we won't track down into that one today but it is quite interesting that if you continue to develop to the theme of your vision, then you can actually build a very sustainable business as well because you don't get diverted to go over to what you think might be the new thing coming along. You do stay on the track of what, you know you have as your core beliefs, I guess.

Richard Medcalf
Yeah, absolutely. That's so helpful. So instead, I'm just aware of time and let's flip over, perhaps to a little quickfire questions as we kind of try to do all this to close, I think there's been so many interesting things here. You know, I think you've done a, it's a really interesting insight into the way that you've taken this business that was so small and debt ridden, and, and we were quite intentional, I think around, you know, around how you expanded how you behave, your capabilities, and all these things and how you re shifted, there's this whole brand, positioning to do what you wanted to do, and to be pretty innovative by the sound of it with the Formula One, the digital twin, these other areas but I'm always curious as to what's going on in the, in the depths of the leader. So what's a favorite quote that, that inspires you that perhaps he bore your team with on a regular basis, you know, what's what shapes you?

Darren Comber
A favorite quote, but I guess I don't really have a favorite quote but I think that there's, I benefited through reading one of you know, an author that I have a lot of time for, I probably couldn't go through all of these quotes but Malcolm Gladwell has been a big impact, if you like reading his books and seeing that, actually, it's society that changes things sometimes not and the response to economic circumstances, and out of those economic circumstances good can actually can't because it changes the whole narrative where we are and I think, you know, the pandemic, you know, obviously a significantly terrible position for everybody but we were all affected and what we had to do was find our own ways of getting through it. So you utilize the skills that you have, and you acknowledge that you can't do everything but if you if everyone uses the skills they have, we can actually make a quantum shift in change. So I think that would probably be one and then I think for inspiration, for me, I've Steve Jobs is perhaps an obvious one for everybody but I think because it's aligned with product, and that's quite a lot of what we do. The knowing, you know, you don't need it before you've got it sort of quote, that wasn't his quote very late, you understand exactly by by giving somebody something they didn't know they even wanted. I think he's absolutely phenomenal and I think that, you know, we strive to do that to create places environments that people enjoy and they didn't realize that they could have that sense of enjoyment through something done. So I think that's kind of what the relevance I'm trying to put into it rather than strictly business.

Richard Medcalf
Yeah, that's great. So what about a book? I mean, sounds like Malcolm Gladwell is a key author. Is there one book that you would pull out as a as a key influence?

Darren Comber
I think let's stay on that theme. I think everyone has to read Outliers. Story of Success, and it isn't just about saying read this and you'll be successful. I think it's it is that sort of sense of, you know, the narrative of making the most of hidden advantages, and extraordinary opportunities, rather than just thinking that it's about exceptional people that that make that happen. So that's the key thing for me.

Richard Medcalf
Yeah. Yeah. For Yeah, exactly. It's, it's what you do with what you get. Yeah, I love it. What about? What advice would you give to your 20 year old self or to somebody who was 20 years old and get back to here stuck in two things?

Darren Comber
Well, it's an interesting one, because I've heard a lot about impostor syndrome recently. Now, I've listened to a number of podcasts and I think it comes up each time and I think it exists in all of us. That's my view. So I'll give you my view. I think there's, there's been times when I've thought, well, you know, why have I been asked to do this? Surely somebody else is better suited to doing this but, you know, I think that's a natural trait and I think sometimes you don't have it doesn't keep you alive but one of the things that I would track back to I guess, on that is that when I started here in my 20s, and I was given the role of lead designer, and, you know, bear in mind, you know, is it it was a big task, then to lead the design of a, you know, sort of firm such as this and when I took on that role, I was asked at a dinner by somebody, or rather, they made reference and said, you know, you're awfully young to be doing this role. Do you think you can do it? And I, at that time, I just sat back and I simply said, I guess we're going to find out and that and that was really, I guess, before we all sort of delved into, you know, should I be worried about can I do it? It was a case of well, hopefully again, and we're gonna find out so. So yeah, I think you know, having that sort of confidence that you can use your best abilities to advantage for everybody. I think he's one of the key things and look at the qualities you have, rather than aspiring to the qualities that somebody else has got and, and focus on those and embrace those, listen to other people learn from other people, I think is a massive thing. You know, I've been fortunate to have good mentors along the way. You know, as I said earlier, I have not done this on my own, and I wouldn't pretend to have done so but what I have been able to do is use my qualities to surround myself with the best people and that's allowed me to to grow the good qualities that I've got, and focus on those and then the bits that I haven't got, I bring those in, I don't try and sort of enact that gives us then a really effect super effective team.

Richard Medcalf
Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah, the your point about impostor syndrome, one of my little phrases is, you know, impostor syndrome is a feature, it's not a bug. I actually wish my clients had more impostor syndrome, because it means they're playing a big game, they're pushing the limits, they're getting out of their comfort zone, complacent and they're, and, obviously, is when your competency exceeds your confidence levels. That's what's going on but it's good place to be actually. So I guess my favorite question Darren, no matter how much we've achieved is always a next level to get to. So what's the next level for Scott Brownrigg? What what are you guys up to next?

Darren Comber
So we've got some, we got some fantastic projects coming along, that we're working on at the moment. I think, for us, it is about the really being credible on the international stage in terms of building stature and I don't know when you ever reached that, if you like, but you know, we we are known worldwide and I think that that's important to us that we continue to have a make an impact or, or contribution on the world stage and so I think that's where we want to go, if you like so contributing in areas that perhaps don't have some of the knowledge or access to talent that we are fortunate to have. So taking that elsewhere. That's one of the key things for me and I think for me as well, there's sort of legacy aspects and what I mean by legacy is about maintaining an environment where people can create and achieve something. So that's so that for me is wider than you know, what do I want to achieve? I think, for me, the legacy going forward is to maintain an environment where you can make that positive difference where you you can eventually look back on your career and say I really achieved something with the skills I had, rather than by wish I'd done that.

Richard Medcalf
Yeah, absolutely. That's what impacts a lot about right this is why I love the word impact because it speaks to financial success, but it actually speaks to their sense of, you know, legacy, what do I actually create? In the removes micelle and unsatisfied about down what will you need to do differently yourself? Right? How do you reinvent yourself if you want to multiply your own impact?

Darren Comber
I think what we need to do is continue as a business to broaden out succession plan. So now that we're in any OT, I think we have a great opportunity to allow greater talents to come through, and actually have a massive impact on on where we go. So I think that that's, that's quite key to allow that and I think, you know, as a CEO, that's always a challenge because you know, you've driven something, and you and, and letting parts of it go, are quite difficult but it's absolutely fundamental that that happens. So it isn't about letting go. It's about saying, you know, you can't fail at doing this. It's, you need to try it and I think, you know, being there and widening out our team is one of the things that I'm going to look to do in the, you know, in the future and I think that that's really, really important, because I've always had the opportunity to be part of that team, perhaps as you know, very much as a leader, but I think leadership comes in very different forms and I think we're going to see over the next decade, the whole landscape change in what that really means and I just think it's a really, really exciting time. So yeah, I'm very fortunate, I've never had a job, I have a career that just as a hobby, that's allowed me to do the things I love.

Richard Medcalf
Beautiful. So Darren, if people want to get in touch with you, or with the business, how do they do that?

Darren Comber
Anybody can email me on d.comber@scottbrownrigg.com happy for that. Happy to pick the phone up to people, if they'd like to call me as well with, you know, sort of things that are interesting to them. I think that sort of ability to interact with, with people that want to share your values is fundamental and it adds to the enjoyment of everything. So it doesn't have to just be in the field of architecture. We've, as I mentioned earlier, you know, our greatest success has been actually looking outside of the sphere of what we do and embracing other technologies, because we all have something to offer and when you bring them together, you really get some great things happening. So yeah, feel free to contact me, please.

Richard Medcalf
So that'd be great. Thank you, Darren, I've really enjoyed hearing about some of the mechanics of what you've got up to and how you've led the business over the last couple of decades. Yes. But I've also enjoyed hearing about your heart, right, the impact you want to make the kind of values that come out, I think here around team and showing it out right, to the extent of employee ownership but I think also just the way that you you've called other people out that it's not your own. It's not just you, it's the team. All these things, I think that both of those things come through with the business acumen and the desire for impact. So I've really enjoyed this conversation, looking forward to continuing to hear about the journey.

Darren Comber
Thank you as you well, thank you. It's been pleasure talking to you.