S13E13: Adventures in sustainable performance, with Stuart McLachlan (CEO, Anthesis Group)

Stuart McLachlan
Back in history, you see strongholds being built in each of those areas. And typically in previous years, strongholds were or built to store houses for food and water. And the, the era that we are coming out of the end of here that was designed at the end of the second World War the strongholds of of this particular era are really characterized more as store houses for wealth. And so if you look at The fossil fuel sector has strung out fossil fuel, as a sector has made around about $3,000,000,000 a profit a day for the last 50 years. And now that is a massive storehouse for wealth.

Richard Medcalf
Welcome to the Impact Multiplier CEO podcast. I'm Richard Medcalfe, founder of X Xquadrant, and my mission is to help the world's top CEOs and entrepreneurs. shift from incremental to exponential progress and create a huge positive impact on our world. Now that requires you to reinvent yourself and transform your business. So if you're ready to play a bigger game than ever before, I invite you to join us and become an impact multiplier, CEO. Today I speak with Stuart McLaughlin. He's the CEO of Antesis Group. And this is a business which consults in the whole area of sustainable business models. It's growing the business from 2013 to over a thousand people across several continents with companies that include many fortune 500 businesses, FTSE 100 Companies. And we get into a really deep conversation here around what sustainable performance is. Is he's written a book called Adventures In Sustainable Performance. and it shows he's a deep thinker. He's really thought about the climate challenge, and he incentives that are stacked up against leaders. and the way that leaders can reimagine systems to modify their impact for good by changing their very parameters in which we're playing You see, as a CEO, we can either play within the game within the rules that exist, or we can reinvent the game. And it's the second thing that Stuart's so passionate about. So if you want a conversation that's gonna stretch your thinking, somebody who's really focused and determined to change from one era to another era of business, then you're gonna love this conversation with Stuart McCottlin.

Hi, Stuart, and welcome to the show. Hi, Richard. Good to be here. So what I know about you is that not only are you the chief exec of Anthesis groups, sorting company on a mission to to change the way, we think about sustainability, the companies work on with sustainability issues, but you've also somehow in the man in the midst of running this, I think, is over a thousand people, group now. You managed to write a book, which is, which is pretty impressive too. So I wanna know, kind of, I know I know your book is called Adventure of Adventure of Sustainable Performance. First of all, what is sustainable performance in the first place And, what was your own adventure that led you to write this book? Yeah.

Stuart McLachlan
So I would have to say I had a co author as well, Dean Salas, who's, friend colleague, co author, and, so he, he needs to take quite a lot of credit put as well. Yeah. So I think I think if I just sort of frame the big picture, then they would allow me to talk a bit about where where we see sort of sustainable performance and what it means. And, so we see ourselves as as really coming to the end of an era, an era that is characterized by certain models and systems. And with any era you see that the, the building of some strongholds. so, you know, you can look at, linear business models or particular form of consumerism or particularly sort of really short term, perspective of capitalism or fossil fuels. these are all the kind of strong out of the of what we now consider to be the old era. And we we believe that the world recognizes now the brokenness of those models and that they started decay and break down. And as they do, we, we all, the world will be stepping into a place of disruption, a place of potential peril, But also a potential over, a place of potential of value creation opportunity, hope, as we start to reimagine what new era might look like. And so, you know, we were we're trying to sort of we're trying to set things within a sort of perspective of a journey. and all the implications of that where leaders are having to move from being leaders that are particularly effective at managing the status quo. and and seeking all those kind of incremental efficiency gains to more more pioneering form of leadership. where you actually gotta step into this place that is is unknown, that is food disruption. and, and where they had to then take all of their stakeholders with them. Not necessarily all their assets because some of the assets that they've currently got will be stranded in the old era, but, obviously, some of the assets will be a value and they're gonna have to steward them across these transitions over into the new era. and the question is that people post. So what what are we trying to achieve? You know, is it net 0 or the works around net 0 and and, or is it a circular business model or social justice and, you know, these all ingredients really associated with the model for the new era. and we haven't designed that model yet. We can see some of the ingredients but, but it's not probably designed. But we call that whatever that model is, when it is finally designed, a model that operates within planetary boundaries has got a different partnership with nature, that that builds off what we hope will be just transition is that model is what we call sustainable forts. And we see the journey to get there as an adventure, hence, the reason for the title, the adventure of sustainable worlds.

Richard Medcalf
Interesting. So, yes, I love this idea of of this journey, yeah, into the unknown, and Tell me about the words, strongholds. It's a very specific word. So what's the impact of these strongholds? Like, I think you mentioned any of business models and some others. What does that mean that there's a stronghold? Are there things that basically is really hard to dismantle? Is that basically the point? Things which are basically sucking the sucking us into their a little bit. Yeah. I mean, it's, you know, we we we've used quite a lot of metaphors in the book, and I I guess this is one.

Stuart McLachlan
And I think where you you sort of see if you go back through the different eras, back in history, you see strongholds being built in each of those eras. So and typically, in previous eras, strongholds were where it was just store houses for food and water. And the the era that we are coming out of the end of here that was designed at the end of the 2nd World War the strongholds of of this particular era are really characterized more as store houses for wealth. And so if you look at The fossil fuel sector of stronghold. Fossil fuel, as a sector has made around about $3,000,000,000 a profit today for the last 50 years. And now that is a massive storehouse of wealth. And now, whether it's 18 from Sweden, or whether it's big financial institutions, or whether it's Rivendell public people are telling that particular stronghold your time is up. Your time's up. You gotta come out of that stronghold. and you've gotta hit the off road. and you've got to for them, it's about energy charges, but it's the same it's the same issue that they've got to step into this transition zone. and what we have typically seen in I mean, I've been in this world for 30 years, so I've been observing it for 30 years is there's a when when leaders of these strongholds are challenged in the way that, we are we are challenging them now on this podcast. We have typically leaders trying to shore up the walls of the stronghold. That had been their response. Why would you want to step out of the stronghold into a place of disruption? and the place of jeopardy. You know, that goes against the instincts of leaders. the instincts of leaders, they must have shot up the walls let us, let us keep our stakeholders here, and increasingly over time, we've seen, a number of these industry sectors using greenwashing as a way to create a fantasy zone. Climate denial. as a way of creating a fantasy zone into which they can take their stakeholders and convince them that everything's okay We don't have to come out as to how we can stay here. It's safe. This is a place where we feel secure. And because of these climate denial facts as they're putting them. Right? They have been able to show up their pension bots for another 2 years, 3 years, 4 years. And so it's gonna I think what's different now, and and there are a number of things that we can we can we can look at in terms of why those strongholds have been shaken to a point of potential destruction is that we've now facing the big stick of plants. So we've got lots of new regulation and legislation that's coming in. So So leaders are now having to face up to the big stick and compliance that it actually came out of strongholds. you know, have no option now, but to step out into this transition zone, into this journey.

Richard Medcalf
Yeah. So what you're saying there is that actually these re regulatory boundary conditions are really important, right?

Stuart McLachlan
So it sounds like there's from what your your perspective here, there's if you're winning in the old era, you're not gonna wanna change to the new era. Exactly. Why would you hold? and it's to say it go it goes against it goes, against the instincts. It goes against human nature. It goes against the types of leaders that we have created who have been highly effective, but managing businesses that operate within the legislature quote.

Richard Medcalf
So how'd you do about advising those leader. I mean, if you're facing somebody who's got a existing business, right, generating value, serving customers, serving stakeholders in different ways, How would you encourage them to go on this adventure in some way? Right? Like, without being irresponsible, Well, they might see as being irresponsible figure, right, you know, hurling their com their business so so that's into someone into the forces of the unknown. Yeah. How'd you help them to take some steps? I'm curious.

Stuart McLachlan
Yeah. I mean, you know, obviously, we've worked over many years for particularly, Progressive leaders who are recognized at this moment in time is isn't ever born. And so and it's, you know, it's the right thing to do. to, to step into the journey. So, you know, there are some early biners, but but that is tiny, tiny fraction of all the around the world who are now having to place up to the reality that they've gotten with. So I'd I think there's, the we suppose we we like it to, to talk about another fellow metaphor. we like it to be a base camp. So the world's a base camp, and it needed to get to Everest. And, and if you have base camp, and you wanna go to the summit. What you don't want is a Sherpa that turns up with a strategy report that says, and have a read of this, you know, this talks about the theory by which you might wanna get to the summit. And, you know, a nice process that you might wanna follow. and good luck. Hope it helps you. And then it goes away. You don't want that kind of support. What you want is a sharper that turns up and says, I'm here to help. Alright. I know how to do this stuff. I've got the elks in tank. I've got the mask. I've got the equipment. I'm gonna train you in terms of how to use it. I'm gonna build confidence in what I'm gonna build. Hasity and capability in you, right, and when we are ready, We're gonna embark on the journey and I'm gonna be alongside you all the way to the summit. and by the way, I've been there before a few times. So I know what it looks like. Right. And that's what these leaders need. And through what we started, so 10 years ago, and Anthony where we could we could see that there was so much talk about sustainability. There was hardly any action where there was action. There was a bay, like, failure rate. And we we looked at what I was. And so we've tried to piece together that sort of more holistic solution focused solutions orientated a proposition. with our thesis that is the shopper that turns up and and says, Hey, I've got the experience. I know we're excited about the equipment. I'm gonna build capacity in you. I'm not gonna ask, and you'll get and you'll be able to extract value. We're not gonna extract capacity from you as an organization to strengthen up my consultancy operation. Right? Because that doesn't help you. And it doesn't help the world. What we need to do is we need to build coasters and capability within our clients organizations. so they can actually do the trip themselves.

Richard Medcalf
So, Stuart, the that implies that this trip, you you can already you've already done the trip Right? I mean, what I was hearing was we're going into this kind of liminal zone, this unknown space where we don't know the answers.

Stuart McLachlan
So where do these shippers come from in in that sense? Yeah. No. I think that's a really good question. And it and it would be it would be wrong, and I would be misrepresenting this situation if I said that anybody has been to the new era. if anybody says, hey, we beat the new era, we know exactly what it looks like, and we can take you there. Right? Then we would we would have a few questions. Now it doesn't mean to say that that we we don't have lots of people who have have been scouts, if you like, scouts is probably, you know, a good word for using this, in this context that have been out and see the next steps and know what net 0 looks like and know what circuit business models look like and know what works and what doesn't work. It's got the experience, all that, and they can bring that back But as I said before, you know, the the next era, the new model that we call sustainable forms, we've got a sense now as to why the ingredients are. But actually, we don't know how it all fits together. and that's part of the excitement. And that's what I keep on saying to people that you say, you know, we feel despair for the next generation. you know, because of, you know, all the concerns about, you know, the common science and so on. And I understand that, but it is an incredibly exciting time to be a lot as the next gen you about the opportunity to be able to reimagine, redesign, piece together in a much more effective way.

Richard Medcalf
What that new model looks like. So if you're a if you're a leader in, you know, a a business that's got, you know, it's not, Yeah. It's not an oil and gas business. It's, you know, it it's not it's not a green tech and What NGO or something of the other side? You're just like a regular business. You know, you're doing your stuff. You know, there's some environmental footprint. was some of the what's the mental model that you'd start to give, you know, you start to invite these leaders to think about. Right? because they might say, you know what? I like just this small, small business or midsize business. Can I really make much of an impact? Does it really matter what I do? Can I just continue with my existing model? limit to other people, government, or whatever. So what kind of tools would you want wanting to put in their tool in their tool kit or, what lenses would you want to give them to start to see the world through? Yeah. Sure.

Stuart McLachlan
Well, I mean, the way they're gonna start to feel the effects of all of this is is for companies, and a lot of the biggest corporations of the world are somehow who's up to that 0. We need to be able to achieve that 0 You need to do what we call scope 1, 2, 3. Scope 1 or 2 is more regular direct emission. Step 3 is where you know, upstream or downstream in terms of the impact of what you do as a business. And that is particularly meaningful when you look into your supply chain, because then you have to start to measure the car parts of your suppliers. And so there's going to be a lot of pressure from coming coming further up the corporate food chain on all organizations. small and large to not just to measure their performance, you know, that's the first step, but then to go on the dirt. with their customers and their parts. and, now and and that's typically in a sort of B2B more in a B2C model, their customers are now starting to buy a lot of press a lot of research around this at the moment that to the buying to and and customer behavior is changing according to the sustainability of fonts of products. So that's that's another pressure that small and large organizations that are allowed to build. And then, of course, employees employees are making their selections as to who they wanna work or according to and ethics and those kind of things. and that's why, you know, we we sort of say, well, we we absolutely understand why money is the muscle of mission, but businesses should not exist just to make money. You know, that is not the reason for their existence. you know, we recognize that There are superior, natural terms, superior offers on the other side of purpose. But that's only if you authentically focus on the purpose of the mission of the organization. and then you get all these other unappeted bits. We just take all the sudden to roll around what you'll try to do. And then we find that very powerful.

Richard Medcalf
Yeah. However you found that to be true in your own business?

Stuart McLachlan
Yeah. Well, we are, we are B Corp. and, And for those degree, they don't know what what we call this. So so typically, typically, businesses operate in such a way that, that authority, they believe that their biometric mission is to deliver an actual, shell And, and actually, I mean, for the the historians, amongst your listeners, we'll probably, learn more about this than me, but, But it tended it it sort of flipped in in the US around the famous economist called Milton Freight who lived, about 40, 50 years ago, and, and that's when he shifted from, businesses believing that, within the constitution. I think actually in America, the constitution has been changed in terms of when you bought off the shelf articles of association as we call here in the UK, to hey, your primary response with your judiciary due to as directors is to look up to your shareholders and to give them maximum search. and, and actually in the UK and other parts of Europe, when you take up art with association, you read them. Most of us don't read them. but they actually said you haven't responsibility to stakeholders. Now, it doesn't always feel that way because we tend to honor the way that that things are turning up past the world. But be cool. reestablish your responsibility to the total value rather than just seeing your corporation as a a stronghold in a selfie. where where your customers and your suppliers are external. And so, you know, you use your buyer leverage over the supplier leverage to sort of maximize advantage and maximize financial returns within the stronghold to be able to deliver against your judiciary duty rather than getting your arms around the full body system. So, so, you know, for us, being a B Corp is meaningful. how we we employ a lot of, vocational talent, and, you know, they wanna work for B Corp, and they want to work for an organization that is authentic. We set up a lot of targets, around, you know, the impact that we wanna make in the world, which We believe we've got teeth, and we've spent a lot of time measuring those. We've got a old impact from our impact team. that, help us to be able to may measure against impact KPIs alongside the natural KPIs litter. give me give me an example of those. What what would an example of an important impact API be for you? Yeah. So, so we we've set a We set a KPI where we want to, be able to take 3 gigatons out of the system, carbon equivalent by Through the through the this what we call it, saucer technique. It's saucer decay, the decade word at Murren. we call it saucer decay because what happens in this decade will determine why it doesn't be used to cut, so we're just choice it. and we we feel that, you know, we have a responsibility as an organization. with probably more experts in this area than any other company in the world to deploy them in a way that's got a maximum impact and then measure that kind of impact. So we wanna get to the end of this decade and look back and think, well, this this this business that we've routed has acted as a vehicle to deliver hosted impact in the world. And so we said this 3 giga fun target. That's about 50% of the annual emissions that the United States should sit would add to. So that's, that's, you know, that's one of the headline opioids.

Richard Medcalf
I hope you're enjoying this conversation. This is just a quick interlude to remind you that my book making time for strategy is now available. If you want to be less busy and more successful, I highly recommend that you check it out. Why not head over to making time for strategy.com to find out the details. Now back to the conversation. And so if you were to zoom out, and go ahead 10 years or, I don't know, something like this into your own business, What what what would multiplying your impact look like? You know, if if you're here in 10 years time or something like that and you were looking back and thinking, wow, this was, you know, I've remember we had that conversation on the podcast in 2023, but here we are at 2033. I couldn't be happier about what we've what we've achieved in we've had, but what would that be? What would that be for you?

Stuart McLachlan
Yeah. so for us, we know that to be able to deliver the impact that we wanna make with You know, there just aren't enough people in the world with the expertise that's required to be able to then sustain it, Cuban Capital, would make this happen. So, you know, we're looking at financial instruments. We're looking at, digital assets, etcetera. All the kind of things that we can get AI, all the kind of things that we can we can bring it into the mix a bit like the Sherpa with the option of thanks of the mask. You know, we need to bring this in to help our plants use it effectively to be able to deliver exponential impact. So we're very focused in terms of how we will be ingredients to get by these longest solutions, but but also, I mean, in fact, let me just give you an example. So we're working with, farmers in, South Africa and in Latin America. And we are developing programs where we effectively said to those farmers. If you move from farming in the way of the old era to a new methodology that is regenet then not only would you get better yields, but we will be able to get those projects registered and we will be able to on the finance to give you an alternative source of income. So the way the old era is worth is, so they are suppliers outside the Corpus stronghold. They're external. and so their customers would be saying year on year, more yield, lower price. That's the deal. And if you don't form, then we've got lots of competition over here that will take the business to work Right. So it's. Yeah. It says you'd really try to reimagine the ecosystem a bit here and fire other incentive of a streams of income. And and and then, of course, and then, of course, you came come in and say, hey, the only way you'll be able to get more yield is to use our camera. So they chop more more chemicals like that, which is stooped about 56% of the nutrients of the soil. at what we're fighting now is that, you know, for these farms that have decided to embrace this new methodology, where there are droughts in the parts of the world, You know, there are there is dry and arid land, and then there are patches of healthy grass land where the, their double stock with livestock, and the, you know, often it's cows, the cow's wearing car. So they're actually seeing a significant improvement in yield with lower costs because they're not having to spend so much of the chemicals. And then they're getting this alternative source of income associated with, this, climate bond finance. And that's coming up from other international corporations. So all of a sudden now, if you are a retailer buying, say, milk, well, there was a then there there's there's a there's a disruption There's a disruption in the value chain. And that's another good example as to how big corporations now need to recognize that they've gotta move to a total value system by looking at their business as an ecosystem, which embraces the suppliers and their costs.

Richard Medcalf
Yeah. I mean, this reminds me of the theory of disruptive innovation where sustained innovation basically re relies upon the same ecosystem, the same channels, the same suppliers, And therefore, the existing players tend to just dominate because they've got all those relationships. But disruptive iteration tends to go for things which are not part of the system, new customers, new suppliers, new channels, which the actual incumbents then find it hard to replicate because that's not their history. That's not their their legacy actually works against it in some ways. I was with one of my clients and part of my own CEO community that I was speaking with this week, we all had a we had a retreat just 2 days ago. And he was explaining how he'd built a a business that's probably worth 150, $200,000,000. In about 3 years, because he had spotted these different revenue value pools, if you like, that weren't being used within the industry. it was allowed him to create something which is addressing a a really significant source of carbon emissions. but people were not thinking about it in, you know, thinking about linear way. You know, this is a problem. Right? They were seeing it as a problem and not an opportunity. Whereas he, you know, give all of all the secrets away, but, you know, he was looking at various things, like, and credits or other regulatory incentives, certain things like this. And he said, well, actually, if you look at it this way, This thing's a huge advantage, right, with a bit of technology. It's a regulatory incentives.

Stuart McLachlan
We can actually reconstituteing create value than everybody else is creating. So I do agree with you that this idea that if you if you step back and think about, yeah, how might I reimagine the ecosystem? and where value might come from, then new things can open up. And and that's and you you're touching them to be bought, boy, because And it goes back to your question in terms of how how are we operating at this type that are, max and New Igma, because we recognize that We we work for, many of the biggest organizations of the world that and we want them to see the opportunity for value creation. Yes. because inevitably, they will root faster. They see that. the the problem is the way the world positions this jet is that it is seen as a threat. And if you will see as a threat, and they're more likely to stay in their strongholds for longer, notwithstanding the, the regulatory stick. And there there will be a reluctance. There'll be a reluctance to move, but there is there is There is opportunity for value creation across the peaks when you when you actually start to shine a different light on the agenda. And you look at, the space that is created for the disruption in these models.

Richard Medcalf
Yeah. So what I'm wondering is it sounds like you've got big goals. Right? You want to create this impact at scale. You wanna lead a whole bunch of leaders into this. new paradigm, right, into this new era, what's gonna need to shift in how you operate as a leader so that you can modify your impact of my favorite questions, right, because we operate in a certain way. We obviously build a fantastic business. When I wondering, like, where's the multiplication lever for you? as you kinda think about this huge challenge, right, to bring the world leaders into into this into this future era. Okay. So that's a that is a great question. a deep wide race. It's just a small question, right, how are you gonna show the Rivendell yourself? But, hey, why not? Let's go there.

Stuart McLachlan
See what we -- Yeah. Yeah. Now I absolutely, and I look myself and I think you know, people say, hey, you're post industrial, not still goes down, not quite sure what that means. You go to a better idea, but, but what I know is is that, is that there's a whole new generation of leaders that have, grown up in more digital world than than I have done on and and I'm more able to, to embrace so much of this disruption than the the speed. I've reached the mark to move it in a that excitement, you know, that new breed of leader's assessment. So I'm trying to sort of, you know, surround myself with people who have brought that kind of agility But I think what's really important I suppose the, the the main response that I would make that question is that I see that most corporations have got cultures that are commander control, especially in people businesses, you know, our people businesses get to a certain size. then, you know, people look across the office and say, I used to know everyone in this bump arrow's snap in the sockless and now with that. Because I don't know people, then all of us start sons, people start looking like a risk rather than an opportunity. And if a corporation starts to look at people or assets as risks, then, they box them up, have book controls around them. And it's amazing how it could be. You know, the these these empowered energize entrepreneurial versus click into a man thought, whose debts press is there, but that, and if we are going to be true to our mission and to be able to deliver maximum impact, we must partake as we grow a culture of empowered because what we need to do is we need to empower the assets of this organization and unleash them to be able to deliver maximum impact. through our plants, who are vehicle to deliver it back through our plants, to to, still have the impact that aligns with our mission. You know, I find myself, increasingly, you know, whether I'm I'm chief executive ops or whether I'm chief culture. So, you know, it's it's, I spend it and increasing amount of time, making sure that we return texts, reinforce, that culture of empowerment so that people who come to work and at thesis feel that they're getting more accelerated learning and development because they're being empowered and unleashed to be able to deliver that kind of change. But if they want to deliver email, that's the way how they've chosen to live their life, that's a vocation, and they want that business be the black wall for them to be able to deliver that car work out of the world.

Richard Medcalf
Yeah. So it has this this whole idea of, the COB in the custodian of the environment, right, of the co and of, I think you're right. As businesses grow, that they can be really easy to the hierarchy kind of, the word ossify is almost, you know, and People move from entrepreneurial spirits to protective mind sets, which doesn't always, service. Yeah. Well, thank you for this con conversation, Stuart. Well, I I I think you've what's going across is you've thought really deeply, you know, about these issues. that you're looking very, in a structured way about how to shift from one world to the other and take your clients on that journey. And this is Julia that indeed you've been on for whatever you said 20, 30 years, since you've been your education, right, in the in this area. So if people wanna Rivendell find out more about you and and what an emphasis does, or about the book, you know, where are the best places for them to go?

Stuart McLachlan
Well, I mean, that is the book. the register's stable performance, published high wily, and, and available, paying up some time that some didn't pass the world. Amazon probably be the most obvious place. and then, this is, this is group.com. and we have got, all this sort of social media channels that you might, expect us to have. So so there's there's quite a bit of information out there on us. we, you know, we wanna hold series of, webinars and, and, you know, we believe that we've got quite a lot of knowledge now that is gonna be used for the world and not this, and we just want we wanna get it out there. So so I think there's quite a lot of assets that are publicly valuable people to been access to. Yeah. That's great. I'll I'll let me ask you one for our last question, perhaps. Obviously, did any of education and resources, your work the web the resources you just mentioned. But, yeah, if somebody the leader in a business and they're thinking, you know what?

Richard Medcalf
This is like nagging me, You know, I'm not really making much of that. I'm pretty, pretty much business as usual for me right now. My own leadership. I'm not quite sure where I can make a difference or Can I even and what's a question you'd invite them to kinda start to think about, right, or a place where they can, yeah, start to think differently about their leadership. Like, what what could be a starting point be for somebody who's not quite sure, even whether they quite wanna go on this journey or whether they should or they can.

Stuart McLachlan
Yeah. I know. I think I think we're oh, I think they should 1st of all, they should understand the regulatory aspects they need to know where they're gonna be forced to own it. They then need to look at the, potential opting to radic version. They then need to test the enthusiasm of the appetite from their stakeholders, and that's probably gonna surprise them. That will then give them a sense as to whether there is the organizational will to step into this transition. And then the leaders have gotta then test their own commitment but also the commitment of the team of people around because the team, you know, leaders and the teams around the that have got primary duty of managing the status quo and seeking incremental efficiency gains. Maybe maybe a different leadership team, but the leadership teams that are required to go on a journey and to step into the unknown. And where, you know, agility and adaptability may actually be the super powers of the next decades as opposed to efficiency being a superpower of the last periods. So, you know, these are the kind of tests. And so for us, you know, one of the things that we we do when we're engaging with a new client who wants at a at a c suite level who who asks us about this kind of question is is we would we run a few tests in terms of where they are from a governance perspective. where they are from that, leadership effectiveness perspective, where they are in terms of their organizational will and really test out these kind of things. and then play it back to them as to how prepared we believe that we are for success. You know, we for many years, we have we have done some fantastic sustainability work. And then we realized that actually there was never the governance platform replaced to be able to make a success out of out of the other software we're doing. So we we believe that the that during this early stage of really testing out these kind of things that are leaders in governance level are Yeah. Beautiful. I I love that idea that you said at the start that people might be surprised if they actually do test out the appetite of their stakeholders. to engage in some of these, experiments or initiatives. Because last place to end, like, what if, right, what if this is a bigger opportunity than you imagine, what if this is a death defining moment in your leadership. Right? These are great questions to lean into in case we as we wrap up here. So Thank you so much for sharing your wisdom, your, your perspectives here on this, she called it the decisive decade, that's ahead of us. And and there's a wake up call for everybody, right, that, all of us that, what decisions do we make in this decade, and how does that pan out? So Many thanks for that. look forward to seeing, how you and and how our thesis continue to grow and evolve, as you support the world on this on this agenda. Right, Rosa. Thank you, Richard. Thanks to her. Bye bye.

Richard Medcalf
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