S9E11: Making other startups successful, with Saket Kumar (CEO, Vitt)

Richard Medcalf
Hi Saket and welcome to the show.

Saket Kumar
Hey Richard, pleasure, pleasure to be on.

Richard Medcalf
Hey, it's gonna be a fun talking today. You're the founder of the Chief Executive of Vitt, which looks like it's doing really interesting things in the world of startup and software as a service and financing that. So before we dive into the mission that you're on, and why is that important to you? Tell me a bit about the business. What's it all about?

Saket Kumar
So it's about offering fast, non diluted founder friendly cash for growing SAS businesses, whether startups or scale ups, essentially giving them the opportunity to access non dilutive financing at a click of a few buttons. So like, the reason we're kind of working on this as I was, I was a VC for for a few years, and kind of just saw how painful fundraising is to be to be perfectly perfectly honest, right? It's a multi week process, there's a lot of ambiguity, because it's rather opaque from the perspective of a founder and we just thought, you know that there must be a faster and cleaner way to do this and yeah, so we set about building Vitt.

Richard Medcalf
Okay, so someone is building a startup, a software company, they need cash, and rather than going through the VC route, or trying to raise financing in different ways, what would they do instead? What do you what what do you suggest they do instead?

Saket Kumar
So they can come to the website, and they can kind of essentially start an application, which is essentially, you know, you connect your kind of bank account information, your accounting information, your subscription management and information you might hold in your stripe or a charge via something like that and then our underwriting model kind of turns around and answer within 24 hours tomorrow, like we did it today. Tomorrow, you will know if we can finance you or not and you'd know how much we could give you and you know what price point?

Richard Medcalf
Right. So yes, this is basically you're basically borrow basically borrowing money, if I understand it, right, based on the cash flow in the business you've already got from paying subscribers. Is that kind of the...

Saket Kumar
Yeah, exactly.

Richard Medcalf
Got it. Great. It sounds a great model. So tell me, let's go back in time, why did you, you when did you start this business and what was the catalyst and why were you? Why were you in? Right? Why did you decide to make this happen?

Saket Kumar
Cool. So like, my co founder, Greg, and I kind of you know, started this, I'd say late 2020 and kind of the reason for kind of both of us is that, like me is kind of a next kind of VC, it just felt that the waste startups were raising capital could definitely could be done better. I think venture is is a great product. We were venture backed ourselves, right but it felt like it was increasingly being, you know, forced into use cases that weren't necessarily that helpful, right. So you know, if you're pouring money into sales, or marketing, does it really make sense that you give up 20 25% of your business or give up a board seat for a, for an activity, which essentially could put an ROI on right now, um, so what kind of financing itself was a was like, venture financing wasn't being used for the kind of appropriate, I guess, use cases, right, which is, essentially r&d, Product Market, fit finding, etc, etc and then also kind of, you know, my co founder kind of group who had been like a software engineers whole life, and recently, she was founded a venture backed startup, you know, also found the process to be like, like, unnecessarily human centric, you know, like, you know, people like meetings back and forth, multiple weeks and between us, we will kind of just, you know, spitballing ideas and realize, hey, we can actually just such a, you know, build this on a web app. So people can kind of, you know, just, you know, he opened up the Chrome and then, you know, by the next day, you know, I did have to kind of cash in the bank, you know.

Richard Medcalf
Yeah, it's great and so, so that comes out of your experience as a VC as well as seeing this opportunity, and perhaps seeing things in a new way and they've been doing it, it's still obviously pretty young business, in many ways, I guess, a certificate in 2020, you know, just a couple of years in what's what's been the most exciting thing that you've seen in the business?

Saket Kumar
I think the most exciting thing is like, you know, that first one, the first kind of customer closes, obviously, like, it was a it was an awesome, it was an awesome moment, I remember when the customer closed, but also the team like, went for dinner, and I thought it'd be like exuberant, jubilant, and we will just kind of really like, quiet there while this like, food is coming through, we just sat around this table at this kind of overpriced food, just kind of like overall that, you know, someone had, like, you know, trusted us that much. So that is still like the number one moment that always comes to my, to my mind. I think the second moment, that's very close second, is when you know, our, you know, our first set of customers, they essentially decided, you know, to work with us again, so they've got their second kind of financial glass or, you know, or third financing with us and that just really felt like okay, where we're doing something valuable, right, because otherwise they would have left or they would have gone somewhere else or they, you know, might have decided to start funds is just not for them full stop and instead you know, we're getting nearly 40 person One of our customers to kind of come back and use us again. Yeah, that was an awesome feeling but that first one really, I just remember it. Like, I also remember it like a movie, right? Like that dim yellow light us around this, like, back table and just like, all kind of just like, I cannot believe that, that that happened to them. Yeah, that was an awesome moment.

Richard Medcalf
Yeah, that's, that's great. So, so what gets you out of bed, like in the mornings, in to build this business? Obviously that you know, I'm sure you want it to be financially successful. It's always the driver, right for any entrepreneur wants, wants a decent payback on their time and effort and everything else but take the finances out of it for a second. You, what is it about this business that excites you? Or what's meaningful?

Saket Kumar
So I think the kind of you know, there's there's two pieces I'll talk about, like our customers are talking about our team, right? So with our, with our customers, everyone is doing incredibly impactful things with their business, right? Whether you know, we have customers in the reg tech space, the PR space, right, the cybersecurity space, the marketing space, like all up and down, essentially, it's sectors of the economy and essentially, building products that enable them to do their best work is like really impactful and kind of, you know, if you draw through line to being a VC, that's kind of what you're doing is as a VC, right, you're essentially kind of looking for like, driven people ride with an incredible kind of teleology, and you're looking to support them and we're doing something very similar here and I think that really like is awesome, right? When you see like, yeah, you know, customers, you know, go on to build incredible things, you can see that, you know, they've used the money, you've lent them to grow their business to x or whatever else, that's a remarkably rewarding and then when you like with that, with respect to the team, it's just a real joy to kind of work with, with with the guys, right, like, everyone is deeply, deeply bought in to what we're doing. Right? So it'll be you know, it will be me being pinged on slack by colleagues, whether it's a you know, whether someone who's joined as an intern, or you know, or my co founder about, where are we with this kind of customer needs, this needs to have we done this ABCD and just seeing everyone who, like get cast so deeply, it's like, that's always rewarding.

Richard Medcalf
You were saying earlier on that you say, you feel you've created a quite an interesting team culture. Tell me about that.

Saket Kumar
Yeah, I think we have like, just quite a, quite a geeky team to be to be honest. Right? So, you know, like, for example, our yesterday over over lunch, we were just kind of sat around, essentially doing like, doing like riddles. Right? So there's like this classic one of, you know, you're like, there's 100 people in a row that each wearing like a red or blue hat and you don't know what color your hat is? It's like 100 prisoners, essentially and like, what's the maximum number of people who can guess their own hat color, right? And you can see everyone's hat in front of you and so the the answer is that you can save 99 lives plus epsilon but Epsilon, like the probability of that person whose color who's who can't see you and stuff like that. It's just fun. Like, it's just like, quite a Yeah, it was, it was like a really bizarre thing, because it's, so you can either be red or blue, right? So it's like, dirty Qigong, it's 50 50% chance that you can get your own hat. So with the strategy consumed, 99 in front of you, and that the person who has a first guess doesn't know so. So the 99.5, or two, somewhere less than, or more than, and then me and my colleague were arguing about whether it's actually point five or not, right, like, it's just like, just going off on one and he's like, he's an Oxford physicist, right and we tried, he's like He did, but I'm not mathematical at all just having a heated debate about like, essentially probability. Yeah, it's like, it's just like, kind of, yeah, it's, it's kind of absurd, I think, on some some degree. Yeah. Yeah.

Richard Medcalf
I know where to send my geeky son now to come to ship with you because he's, he'll probably be able to play with that game as probably could I, if I'm, if I'm being censored. It's not Yeah, I get you. It's interesting, because every company will reflect the leaders create culture and so actually, it's great to go, this is the culture you want to create and actually, we want to be geeky and thinking about math problems and whatever it's, you know, why not? Like it creates a thing. I think, sometimes companies lose some of that particular flavor as they get bigger but that's not always a good thing. I think it can be good great to have that specific idea. One of the previous interviewees on the podcast, talked about how we first set up his company. He was very, very intentional about giving all his team, even on the first day when they were just three of them in the garage, giving them high fives every time you entered the room, you know, whatever, every time he saw him for the day, he would give them high fives. They're like, What's this guy doing? You know, this is like, getting done anything yet and, and yeah, that was his way of saying I want to set this up as a culture of a bit more fun, a bit more high energy or I want to energize my people and that's kind of give me my trademark and so it's interesting how we trade that how to work with your co founder? I mean, you mentioned a co founder a few times. Do you? What binds you together? Right? So, you know, in terms of the business, so you know, is it that you have a shared financial goal that you're trying to achieve together? Is there some kind of outcome you want to get to in terms of what the business looks like? Or the customers you want to serve? Or how did you kind of align between the two of you?

Saket Kumar
So, I think there's a few things I think the kind of big thing that kind of probably drives both both of us is we really want to have like, a very lasting impact on on startups, right and lasting positive impact because like for me, right, like, we I didn't have that much into my background kind of before the fact, right? But you know, for me, like before, you know, before I got into startups, I was I was kind of aimless To be honest, right? had graduated from a fancy University, right, but didn't really know what I was doing. My friends were, you know, consultancies or law firms or whatever and I was kind of like, aimless and then the moment I stepped into my first startup, I was just like, you know, on the second day, I was like, this is, this is it for me, right? Like, I really enjoyed this culture, I enjoy what we're doing here and, you know, it's not like that startup was successful, right, we actually didn't find PMF, we didn't really make it and I still, like loved that experience, and still talk to many of my old colleagues. So the idea of like, building a company that is enabling many more people to have that kind of experience it really through new capital, right, but still enabling them to do it go do that is something that's pretty close to my heart and then for Greg, you know, I mean, he's been working for, you know, early stage companies since he was like, you know, 1920, right. So for him, it's also very, very kind of similar. So I think that's like a big thing that kind of draws us to together. I think another thing that helps, is obviously, building a company is stressful, right? There's, there's disagreements, right? There's high impact decisions where you might not be super aligned, I think two things that really help us as well, is that we have a lot of respect for each other, coupled with kind of self awareness, I remember we had this one disagreement, I called the explicit disagreement was, we had like some, some disagreement about something strategic, and it wasn't getting anywhere and it was like, like, late at night, 10:11pm, I was arguing, essentially, were going around in circles and I remember which one of us said it, and we were just like, this is getting nowhere, why don't we just sleep on it, and just like, approach it, again, just take, like, a good breakfast and like, being a little bit more chipper about it and like, Sunday was like, resolved, you know. So I think that always helps us from like, you know, if we're having disagreements about the facts of the case or not, you know, because we might be tired or stressed out or whatever, get to, like, kind of eject out of that, and kind of just, you know, find a way to kind of moving on and I think the second thing that really helps is that we have a shared sense of humor. So in terms of kind of what binds us together, it's actually what I found is kind of we look for in the highs as well, is like, when things are miserable, are you able to have a laugh, because at the end of the day, like if you're not able to have a laugh, you're just like, going to make it more miserable by being overly stressed out, or the sort of guy or girl who's like, you know, screaming shouting at the desk is like, not really that helpful for everyone. Yeah, so I think that's also a thing that we always have that when things are looking really kind of dour, we're able to laugh about it and simultaneously, right, when things are going really well. We can also cynically be like, Oh, this bubble is about to burst and like, you know, point I wipe my butt and kind of move on. So I think that helps as well.

Richard Medcalf
And, and what kind of things do drain you, you know, what can I slows you down in the business?

Saket Kumar
So I think in general, the kind of big thing that drains me was two things. I think one has a high level, when I'm, you know, not totally sure that what I'm working on is the most important thing because that, you know, that just loves me the most important thing of my life, should I be even working on this, and that, you know, just really slows me down and kind of the pace of my personal my personal work and I think the kind of second thing is, you know, given the space that we work in, right, you know, you know, when we really have to, you know, do something kind of, you know, with a certain kind of regulation, you know, that's just like, ah, you don't have to go through this kind of Handbook of the FCA. So that for sure is just like, can be a little bit of of a drain. Important, but that can definitely be a bit of like, oh, okay, here we go. Let's open up this PDF and and put the headphones in but it's more than the first thing that really, that can really slow me down.

Richard Medcalf
Yeah, that's why I see that a lot. We talked about this before and I've got my new book out but I guess at least by the time this probably is issued, but we'll pick it out and it's around that it's around making time for strategy, because until we can step back and figure out what is the most important thing. We're really not sure whether we're operating at 10% of our capacity or 100% even if we're working flat out and yeah, I see it all the time and I think when you're an entrepreneur it's even more pronounced because you have so much flexibility about what you could put your focus and attention on. It's almost like, you know, it's an infinite amount of choice. Yeah and so I see that. How have you? I know you guys took a relatively small team, so, but I'm curious to know, how do you mobilize people around your vision? You know, you said everybody was super bought in, and super engaged. Why is that? Why is it that you feel everybody has really got behind it in such a way?

Saket Kumar
So I think there's a, there's like a few pieces, I think, one at the offset, we have a very rigorous interview process. So it's like, almost like a self selection kind of criteria, right. So we hire a lot for I mean, smart is a big one, right, um, kind of, as you can kind of figure out from the earlier, the heavyweights, we spend our lunches, but also people who are like really, really relentless. So you know, like everyone in the team had a story of, you know, that they were, you know, absolutely kind of ferocious in achieving, achieving a goal, right? And that's like, the one thing that really binds everyone, right? So we have, you know, you know, we have an intern on the team, right? We have the, he hasn't even finished university, I have another member on our team who spent like, 17 years at Goldman and the one thing I can say about the two of them, and everyone else in the team by just use them, because they're the most desperate examples that really binds them is that they're, like, really relentless and super keen on the interview and, you know, we wouldn't have ever given them offers if they didn't have personality traits and so those two things kind of, you know, tie into kind of what what about, you know, just being really bought into what we're doing here is that, you know, people are always always hungry, to make the customer experience better, because I think they see a way where, you know, they just have that kind of, you know, to use a cliche, but that's the kind of ownership mentality, right? So whether you're in sales, right? People are aggressive about making sure that turnarounds are faster and emails, or customers are having the best experience or following up diligently, you know, that no customer ever feels that they don't know what's happening, whether it's like an engineer being like, Okay, this part of the integration, you know, takes 15 seconds, and it should take two seconds, right? Everyone's because, you know, that that mentality around, you know, the different parts of the product. I think that kind of really, really helps in that because I feel very comfortable in the people that we've hired, because typically, at minimum, spend five hours with them, if not more, and we diligently ref Check everyone that I feel very comfortable handing things off and I think that also really helps, I guess, to kind of summarize, like, we filter very well, the interview process, and that's kind of me hand things off with, you know, having maybe high level context or not feeling that I need to micromanage and then it's easy to be bought into the to the mission, right, because it's not some abstract thing that I'm talking about. It's that I might be talking about abstract kind of, you know, you know, high level abstract thoughts, but then members of the team concretely only very big parts of it and so then it becomes quite easy, because they're not, you know, they also have the thing that the driving.

Richard Medcalf
Yeah, no, no that so yeah. So it really also, it really starts with making sure that you are really thorough about the interview process, which is interesting, because not every company does that when they start off and they're like, we just need to find some people but it sounds that you've really focused on that and therefore, it's like the one decision that makes it all easier, right? If you get really good at hiring, all the other stuff downstream becomes a lot easier.

Saket Kumar
Yeah, I mean, I think and what I would say to that, is, if I look back on like my career, it's not like a long, illustrious career, right? Hopefully, I will change but it's just, you know, just tell you, if I look back on my career, like ballparks, and things, I really enjoy my did the best work. It was really the people that made it made the difference and, you know, if you find a segment with product market fit, and all that good stuff, right, then the outcomes can be wildly divergent, right? Like, you know, if you're starting a search engine, you know, and you're in the, in the 90s, whatever, right? That is going to be it's going to be huge, right? Or potentially could be huge but the day to day, like you enjoy your work, and you feel that you're, you know, you're being productive and getting the most out of your days. For me, that's always been a reflection of, you know, when I was an employee, not so much how the company was doing, although it's nice to be at a company that's winning versus a company that's losing, but like, the people that were that were around me, that I've been, you know, and I think that was something that I really kind of brought brought forward. I would honestly, I would rather do an extra, you know, X amount of hours a week, and kind of, you know, cover the loss of someone not being there, then work with someone who I just don't enjoy working with because that's just that's miserable and when the thing is when you're the CEO, you can't blame anyone, right? Because like, you didn't have to hire them. So it's like, yeah, I took that on heart and that's why we're very kind of cautious about who we hire.

Richard Medcalf
Nice. So, second, let's move into my little quick fire question round. It's been an interesting conversation. I'm always curious as to what forms and founds leaders you know what what's going on. inside. So what's your favorite quote that's kind of shaped who you are, or something that you bore your team but with by saying on a repetitive basis, is there some kind of quote that comes to mind?

Saket Kumar
So, a tactical one is everything is a funnel on the day to day, right, so sales, hiring, vendor management, everything is a funnel. So I think, you know, you can always solve a lot of your kind of operational problems with that but a more interesting one is this idea, I can't remember it verbatim as quote by a mathematician, who says, you know, optimization is the enemy of evolution, right? And kind of what he means by that is, you know, if you're always focusing on getting four or 5%, better, then you're not taking a step back and evolving and maybe becoming, you know, 10,000% better. So I think balancing those two, those two things. One is, I guess, more high level strategic kind of perspective and the other is like a day to day, which I found very useful and making sure that operationally things are humming smoothly.

Richard Medcalf
Yeah, nice, fine. How about a book? Is it a book that's influenced you as a leader? How you know how you are, who you are, how your vision is shaped?

Saket Kumar
So I guess there's a there's a, there's a few, I think, one that sticks top of mind, I think it's been recently by us, it because I reread it recently, his book called how music works by David Bryan, I think he was in a band called The poking out of memory serves and what I found really interesting there as he talks about the evolution of music in different areas, right, like, So music is a space where I think many people associate it with genius, right? Like, you know, Mozart is a genius, or the Rolling Stones and geniuses or the Beatles, or whatever else and when he says really interesting, because he talks about, you know, the evolution of like African music and contextualize it with like, New York, punk music or whatever else, it's like, Well, the reason, you know, the riffs and the melodies evolved in a certain way, in New York, and then in the 50s 60s, etc, is because of the dingy nature of the rooms, and they would often have far on the wall, so they absorb sound in a certain way. So you have to play in a certain way for it to sound good and then, you know, certain parts of Africa with a flatland you know, that's why you have great like a drum tradition, because that's sort of sound carries very well for like long expanses and that always kind of sticks in my mind about like, you know, giving people the context to like, thrive and be a be a genius. Maybe that's a little bit hyperbolic but the idea of like, your contacts, being everything, even if something is like a femoral is kind of this idea of musical genius, or something that really stuck with me.

Richard Medcalf
Context. Yeah, context. It's so hard for somebody I was thinking the other day said, the strategy is easy. It's the context for strategy that's hard. Which, in other words, what's going on in their own brain? What's going on how we see the world? That's, you know that that's the context of how we think just came to mind you talk about context in other areas? I think often, yeah, defining the context, understanding the context is, and creating a context is really powerful. What advice would you give your 20 year old self?

Saket Kumar
Take more risks? Yeah, I think I'd relatively, I'm relatively good appetite for risk as a young person, at least in the professional context but just expand that out.

Richard Medcalf
Why is that important, do you think? How that helped you?

Saket Kumar
I think, would have developed me more as a person. Like what I mean by that is, like, just doing more things that, you know, things that may never been exposed to, I found is like, evolve me as a person, right? Like so you know, I kind of went to Berlin, I lived there five years, I'm now back in London, but when five years on a whim, and living in a foreign country, in a country, I didn't speak the language, I had no friends in Berlin when I first moved there, like really, like evolved me as a person. When I go back to university, I, you know, produced a student play, I had, like zero theatrical experience, I went to like a state school, which I'm not even sure we ever put on a play, right? And so that was something where it's, you know, really helped me develop and feel like I brought it as a person and I didn't appreciate a time, but I could have been doing that, like, 10x more, right? Whether it's like, you know, traveling more, whether it's diving into activities I've never done before. So yeah, I think that'd be the...

Richard Medcalf
Yeah. So, many of our best guests on the show come from referrals. So I'm always curious as to who inspires you, as a leader, you know, is it is a Chief Exec or an entrepreneur, who you know, who's inspired you on your journey. You know, who'd be great guests, perhaps one or one of the shows, who comes to mind?

Saket Kumar
So I watched this guy called Dan Sharp. He's the founder of a company called chakra, which is a unicorn based out in Berlin. I worked with him at his prior startup called validate where he was one of the co founders, and validate wasn't as successful, right? And I worked with him and it was one of the best that one of at the time I didn't appreciate, but one of the luckiest things I've ever, like, professionally could have happened to me. I just got to work with this guy day in day out and see how he operated and to kind of question about, like, what I admire about him is that he really makes time for you as a person, right? He did that when I worked with him but more importantly, right when, you know and what for him for a few years, his company was like skyrocketing, right? All the fancy funds were investing the valuation was going bananas and when I said I wanted to build something, you know, within two days, right, like, I think we had coffee, and he would chat me through it. When I said, we were gonna go hire people for the first time, and I'd never hired people before, right? He calls me Saturday morning, I hear frying in the background, I'm like, What's up, he's like, Oh, I'm cooking brunch or for my girlfriend but let's look at this, how we should do it and then just ran me through his matrix, how he thinks about hiring, which also influenced why we're so particular about hiring because one of our learnings and it was just like, always makes me feel that, like, I'm the most important person that he's talking to and I just know that's not true, right? Like, I know, he's got like, he has his own employees. Now his own direct reports, right? He has his board members and investors and like a million other people, and probably everyone's knocking on his door for his time and, you know, back and validate, or whether now is a successful kind of, you know, unicorn founder, he's always made me feel that, like, he has time for me, and he will always have time for me and I really hope that in 1015 years, when there's like, a Vitt alumni network, that all the people feel even 50% as good as I feel when I when I chat to them.

Richard Medcalf
Yeah, that's beautiful. Examples are so clear, and why you? Yeah, how it makes you feel, right, it's really important and second, how no matter how much we've achieved is always next level to get to so where does it go from here as a business? What's next for you guys?

Saket Kumar
I mean, our kind of obsession is always kind of, you know, giving the best kind of products to kind of startups and scale ups and one thing we've seen over the coming, you know, over the past few months with macro uncertainty, interest rates rising is that there's a lot of startups who have cash in the current account, and they don't know what to do with it, rather than have to optimize it, you know, rates essentially, were at zero between, like 2009 and 2022. So no one's really even got a strategy and so we're building a product that will enable startups to have access to, you know, great yields that are secure. So, you know, their cash is, you know, losing 10% on inflation, essentially, right? So that's the next problem. We want to go solve alongside our core kind of, you know, financing product.

Richard Medcalf
Yeah. Nice. Thanks. Thanks for sharing that and what about you personally? This is The Impact Multiplier CEO Podcast, I'm always thinking, what's gonna breed create a breakthrough in your own leadership, you know, what's going to put my you need to do differently if you want to multiply your own impact?

Saket Kumar
I think, you know, the first thing is kind of what I said earlier about, you know, making, you know, decisions faster and faster and faster but obviously, at certain point, you have some Tobler, so making decisions fast and faster and secondly, getting a better perspective on like, where I actually need to be making decisions. I think I'm still like, you know, almost like a stereotypical phoner in that regard but there's definitely stuff where I check it and I want to take a look where maybe I can just be a bit more hands off. So I think those two things in parallel, right, so making more decisions, but also understanding of those more decisions, which are the decisions I should actually focus on.

Richard Medcalf
Yeah, yeah. It's like, it's almost sighs it's like asking better questions, right. It's like finding new questions to answer instead of the ones that are mutually in front of you sometimes but thank you, it's really honest. Yeah and I think it's the journey of, of anyone in a growing company is how do I keep letting go of what I have been doing, which I feel comfortable with to find these other areas, which I'm not yet attending to, which is a challenge for us. All right. This has been great conversation. I've enjoyed this a second. If people want to find out more about you, or about theater, how do they do that?

Saket Kumar
So they can come to the website, vitt.sh. If you're wondering why .sh? It's a joke about shell script. It's very geeky, which kind of sums up the some of them. So yeah, I said, and you can email me saket@vitt.sh I'm always very available.

Richard Medcalf
Perfect. I'll put this in the show notes and hasty in front conversation. Thanks again for taking the time. I look forward to seeing how it continues as you continue to add on more and more high growth software companies who you know who want quick access to financing so looking forward to watching the journey.

Saket Kumar
Awesome. Thank you for the time, Richard. Have a lovely afternoon.

Richard Medcalf
Take care.