S9E14: Winning people’s hearts and minds in a turnaround situation, with Remco Samuels (CEO, EVBox)

Richard Medcalf
Hi Remco and welcome to the show.

Remco Samuels
Thanks, Richard. Thank you.

Richard Medcalf
I'm looking forward to hearing your story. EvBox is is really interesting company you came into I think a couple of years ago, found yourself in a bit of a turnaround situation and you've really really changed things for the company. You're just telling me as we before we hit record that you've just had a great article published in the in the national in the Financial Times in in the Netherlands, perhaps signifies a little bit, a beginning of a new chapter for you. So I think it's a great moment just to take stock of the journey so far, and find out what your mission is and why you got involved. So before we go any further, just tell me a little bit, you know, what's, you know, what is the Vbox? And how did you get involved in this journey?

Remco Samuels
Yeah, so, if you box is a technology company, so we manufacture AC and DC chargers, so AC those are the charges for at home or at the workplace DC those, those are the fast chargers you see along the highways. So we manufacture those, we are also offering our own software solutions. So both the firmware that goes in, in the hardware, but also the software platform that for instance manages the chargers, the transactions, etc. And the third big block that we are doing is our own service and support. So basically we have the full range of of solutions for our customers and our mission is to accelerate the transition towards cleaner mobility immobility for our customers. Yeah, so so that is up box. In a nutshell. We are currently we are based in Amsterdam, a little over 700 employees. We are active in multiple regions with our key regions our Benelux France, UK, Ireland, the Nordics Germany, Austria, Switzerland and then the US we have a facility there as well.

Richard Medcalf
So yeah, so fantastic. So obviously, in the given the whole energy transition and you know, everything out and climate change, it's it's relevant and exciting business to be in. And I know that you had your prior career, you know, you're you're an NG which is, you know, multiple utility company, right? And not necessarily just on renewables on clean energy. So I'm just kind of wondering, what Jenny was, is, you know, you were doing different roles in this huge in a huge company, and now you became chief executive of, I guess, a smaller, higher growth entities. So there's a lot of change, I guess, in that so what's the what was the transition between the two? How did you end up in this in this role?

Remco Samuels
Yeah, good question. That's the question I always ask myself as well. How did I end up but I I started my career with in auditing in year one I, then in 2007, I joined NGS as a consultant first. Later, I joined the company fall in 2009, that was in finance or was responsible for for finance in the Netherlands. Then, the CEO CFO back then asked me to come to Brussels, where I did finance for, well, European business unit of energy. So that was for me. The idea, okay, let's, let's see a bit more of this group, big, big group. Netherlands is just a small country, so I wanted to explore a bit better there. And in a year or so, they asked me to move to Paris, because there was a restructuring. And they wanted me to lead the strategy department of the world, the global retail activities, which was for me totally out of my comfort zone, as you can imagine. But I thought, okay, hey, if you if you don't try, you will never get there. So. So I went there. As a Dutch guy in Paris, you can imagine that's not not the easiest from a cultural standpoint, but also from a content because it was completely new for me, I did that for three years, I get to travel all over the world, managed to to have a very clear strategy and execute execution plan for NG that they didn't have before. So that was really appreciate it. Yeah. And from there, it took off, I went to operations for two years. So I also get to learn much more about, well, the operational aspects of business. But so far, it always has been supported, let's be honest. Until the moment came that in May 2021, Up Box was in the process of fully IPO. So they were supposed to be listed in the US. But things did not went went very smooth. And they asked me to step in. So I stepped in, in May, I came to Amsterdam. And yeah, I found a really interesting opportunity. Obviously, I had a lot of experience with with, with ng but never in a company like if he box. But what I what I tried to do here is to say, hey, take take one step back, if he boxes a very promising company, it's one of the, the early adopters of this technology and say, but they came at a point that the market was growing so fast, and in all directions, and they wanted to be everywhere. Yeah. So So for me, I could use my experience on strategy, retail now, that was also looking forward. So what is going to be the next big thing in in the retail business when it comes to energy? That was very closely related also to mobility, electric mobility. So I could use that experience very well, in in vivo. So it

Richard Medcalf
sounds good. Sounds like you've almost got this perfect. Business trajectory, perhaps because NGS is organized and structured and big company, right? But it sounds like you know, you, you did your finance that where you came in, as a consultant, you did the finance, you did retail, you did operations. So you really kind of got a panorama of the business. I'm curious, because that sounds like an ideal situation from which to then be offered a CEO role. But also, probably not everybody in ng got that. Got that opportunity, or created themselves. So we say the opportunity to do those different roles. So just looking back, how did you do that? What did you do to be able to move from, you know, audit, to finance, you know, more general finance to read to retail strategy to operations, you know, to the CEO role? What was the advice as you think about?

Remco Samuels
Yeah, yeah, I've been asking myself this question as well. Because indeed, I saw many, especially many Dutch people that went to the headquarters in Paris feel, I managed to grow and managed to even step up there. Yeah, I think two things. So one is I have a very eager of, of, of thinking outside of my my own expertise. So I really liked to think about what's the next big thing and it's also for NG Where is ng going? And ng has also difficult times because they restructured they they carved out businesses they needed to focus on that really intrigued me. So I had this intrinsic motivation of understanding the strategy and understanding what would that what could I add to that? So that's one thing and I think the second thing is is more on the personal level. or interpersonal level, especially as a Dutch guy, you, you are very direct. And that's that's what that's people are known for. And that's a good thing, but it also has some negatives. So if you go to, for instance, France, but in many other countries, it makes very good sense to really try to understand first before you want to be understood. So I think that really helped me I was really patient I listened to, to my French colleagues. And from that point on, you can be very direct, and you can really say, Okay, now this is how I look at things. And that was really appreciate it. So from there, I could even use it as okay, sorry to be a bit direct, but hey, I'm Dutch, and then you start to create your own your own image that is, that is appreciated. Yeah. So I really felt I was I was in the right place in Paris. So I spent six years got a lot of attention from from senior management, because of my, my openness, my transparency, but also respectful way of working. And they, they liked that. And obviously, yeah, I also understand a bit about where this company is going and what I can can add to that. I think those two, so really try to be really try to think in to see okay, what is what is really, in the hearts and minds that say of the NG XCOM? What are their issues? What are their plot what problems they're trying to solve? And and if you really understand that, and you have good connection on this, this this personal level, yeah, then you can make it. It works for me.

Richard Medcalf
Yeah, that is, it's a great point is that sometimes you're right, what I'm hearing is, sometimes when we're visionary and have our ideas, we can push too hard, because we haven't necessarily heard right, the people opposite us, or they do feel

Remco Samuels
that is that's a classic mistake. And I've seen people saying yeah, okay, but this is how I look at things without knowing the bigger scheme of things. So you have many people in the room, if you start to fire off your, your, your ideas, or your opinions, etc. They feel that that is, yeah, that is not respectful. You're arrogant, you're it's goes totally in the wrong direction. Yeah. If you really tried to understand test the waters in the room was I was everybody thinking about things and you create your, your, your bigger picture. And from there, you can really make make a difference.

Richard Medcalf
Yeah, it's a leadership tool that I talk about quite a lot, which is just very simple push versus pull behaviors, right? Often, we're very strong at one of those. And let's get at the other, right. So some people, they're great at listening, but they don't always communicate clearly. Other people are great at saying all their thoughts, but haven't necessarily picked up on the broader contexts and having created ownership. So it's a great reminder.

Remco Samuels
I agree. Yeah. Find a balance there is. Yeah, that that can make a difference. Yeah. Yeah.

Richard Medcalf
So so let's move forward. So you join Evie box, the IPO didn't go ahead as planned, you know, you have to come in with a bit of a mandate to look at things and turn things around, you know, what did you find, you know, as you arrived? And what were the biggest challenges you had to overcome?

Remco Samuels
Yeah, so yeah, what I found was, well, still a very motivated community. So V box also has this this sustainability goals, let's say, which is really attracting people. So that that remains, but also that there was this this dream, there was this dream of Vbox going public and being this $1 billion company. Yeah, that dream was was washed away. So a lot of people also felt a bit demotivated because of that. So my task was okay. We need to make sure that we quickly closed the past and we can look forward again, but in a way that we can really, really grow our business. Because like I said, if the box was was basically in too many activities at the same time, so they were opening multiple markets, also with regional offices, they have multiple product lines, all with their own architecture. They have so many customers also smaller customers in the in the system. Yeah, we said we need to focus we are only with well, back then it was a bit over 800 people, but still very small. If you look at the total market for electric mobility. So we said we need to make some choices. So we closed down offices, which was really tough.

Richard Medcalf
Let me let me finish for a second. I want to just kind of Understand the situation you go in, there's all this stuff going on. People demotivated, that low dispersion like, where did you start? Right in terms of you literally arrive? You know, how did you kind of think about your own plan?

Remco Samuels
Yeah, yeah.

Richard Medcalf
Got to the stage where you identified, we need to close down this thing and do that and consolidate this, you know, how did you kind of look at that situation? How did how did you attack it?

Remco Samuels
Yeah, there are several answers there. So first, my, my, my first priority was to have to make sure that there is a management team that, that I can really trust that I can really empower. And because, honestly, by myself, it would have been a Mission Impossible. So that was the first step. And so we have indeed changed a few people. Also people that left by themselves, they felt more connected to the previous EV box, let's say. So we build a new team, people that I can really relate to, that was one thing. Second, then we spent time with the team to say, Okay, we all know that what we are doing today is not focused enough. So we need to make some choices. So we spent a couple of days off outside and we said, Okay, this is this is going to be our focus. Also, we had some strategic studies, of course, saying these are the markets that you need to be in, we decided to stop product lines, that plan was set. And honestly, that took a bit too long if I look back, because the whole company back back then was of course eager to learn where we are going. So they know what we are not going to do. But they were questioning who said, what are we going to do. And honestly, if I look back, myself, I failed there for a couple of months even to be really crystal clear in communication. And so I think when you when you are in a turnaround like this, that the biggest task that a CEO needs to do is to make sure that everybody stays on board. Everybody understands, okay, this is the process we are going through. We don't have all the answers today. But this is what we are working on. And we feel that

Richard Medcalf
because that void can sometimes create a problem, right? Like where you say, we're not doing these things to people. Yeah, but what am I actually doing? What are we focused on actually, that void is, is a killer. I remember once in Cisco, we have a similar situation. There was a new Organa Graham at one point in put up and I remember everyone looked at this Organa Graham and was like, I can't see any of and there was no existing team on this organic ground. So like everybody, suddenly, the next day was in limbo mode, which was not at all the intent, right? But everyone was like, what do we do I even have our team call next week? Because, yeah, but does it even mean Exactly. That created a huge issue.

Remco Samuels
You can and you can imagine that if you if you change so many things in a company, you will also see a high attrition. So so many people left also middle management, many people left. So you can imagine that it seems to be low. They were also in limbo. So it's okay, what what's next what is going to happen? But we, as a management team, we had to do several things, we had to to fix some legacy issues. We had to build some basics, and we had to prepare the future. So that the new strategic plan all at the same time. Yeah. And we forgot a bit, I must say, to take along older the entire Evie box community. And that was, yeah, we clearly after and we clearly explained that in a town hall meeting. This was not great. So we are going to do this way better. And as from that moment, we had regular information sessions, where we said, Okay, this is the process we are following. And also okay, this is the way we are moving forward. That really helps. But, in fact, this is what my biggest learning as a first time CEO was because I had many roles in the level below CEO and I always thought, Okay, if I would be CEO, this, this could be so much better, I can do this. And that's what guess what, that's not the case, right? All of a sudden, you are overwhelmed with with internal things with with people from the outside world, shareholders, customers. Everybody is at your desk. And the first thing you need to do you need to take a step back and say, Okay, what is my priority? where needed? Do I need most of my time, if you can even manage that? So So my biggest learning was you have you do have the full responsibility of the company. You do have the ability to change, but it's never going in the pace that you want. And basically you're just a servant to the to the company. It's Richard here with just a quick interlude. If you're serious about multiplying your impact, I have a free resource that you won't want to miss. I put together a short email course called exponential leadership principles. In it, I set out how you can use the same strategies as some of the world's top leaders to get out of incremental progress and achieve breakthrough results. Be prepared to have your current thinking challenged, and to learn some very new ways of leading.

Richard Medcalf
If you're interested in following along, simply sign up at xquadrant.com/go/exponential. Now, back to the conversation. Yeah, and the more that you actually try to intervene as CEO, generally, the more negative effects you have, because you are actually stepping on everybody else's toes, who's actually meant to be doing the work?

Remco Samuels
Exactly. Yeah, exactly. That's, that's totally true.

Richard Medcalf
So we were just just getting through this this process. So you had your new management team, you had your two day retreat to focus, you identify the new product lines you wanted to focus on? Was that kind of the main three step plan? Or was there another part that we didn't get to in terms of, you know, your main focus as you, you move to turn the company around?

Remco Samuels
Yeah, so it was about lesser product lines, but also less customer. So we focus on specific segments, specific customer types. And so we also had to say goodbye to to customers that were actually really loyal, but just couldn't grow with us and didn't fit fit in this focus the plan? That was also a big, big step. Yeah. And then it's a it's about culture. So many things are said about culture. But if you are moving from an organization that basically focused on or didn't focus at a day, they went for the they shoot for the moon, they went for everything at the same time. It was a very siloed organization. So there was no culture of ownership. There was no not the result oriented culture was not there. And that was basically my my biggest concern as well. So how do I get this total machine running in a way that is basically helping us forward instead of fighting all kinds of internal battles over this is not my responsibility, but yours? That was not? Not not clear at all. And so that's the good thing is Yeah, many people left many people came in, of course. So also, that generates a different culture, as long as you as as me as CEO, is very clear in every communication. This is our purpose. This is the vision that we have. This is the strategy. And this is also the execution plan. And I kept on repeating and repeating until the moment came that people said, I'm totally annoyed by you explaining the same old story again. And that's okay. This is the

Richard Medcalf
Yeah. You're kind of cutting through, right? Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Well, this is a great one, I laid it vocative, right. Because he's talking about culture and the mission as well as the company. And on one hand, obviously, the CEO, you need to be read to really embody that, that mission. And it's very clear mission, in this whole world of electric charging. And yeah, you know, I could be cynical and say, Well, you know, you're just as a hired gun, you know, finance guy brought in by head corporate headquarters. You know, you don't really care about this business, you've just been parachuted in as part of your, you know, your corporate career, you'll do this, you'll cut a few heads off, you know, go off and do something else. within the group. I'm being cynical, right, but people could see it like that. So it wasn't like you founded the company, and it's your baby from birth and all this. So I'm just kind of wondering what your experience has been of kind of moving from this, you know, doing these different things around the world with Ng and then kind of actually becoming the CEO of this of this group? And how that's affected your own sense of purpose, or, yeah, how that's what the what your journey has been, really on that whole question of mission.

Remco Samuels
Yeah. Yeah. I think if you ask the people here, they would say in the beginning when I came in, I think some people were a bit afraid. Because indeed what you said that that was the perception this guy is coming from the headquarters of ng ng is a basically a financial holding company that has some investments that needs to be providing them then profits. So he's good is being put there to to clean up and to to move away after Well, that's That's it, that's not who I am. So if you look at, at what is intrinsically driving me, I'm really interested in well in helping others I really like that so I can really relate to people in all levels in the organization. I like to have a call We have a big coffee table here downstairs in the in the lobby, where I meet all kinds of people from all levels in the organization that that really gives me a lot of energy. So you can see, I think, throughout the first year, people start to see this, this guy's actually he cares about the company. We I care about, about the people, I really believe in Well, in our purpose, but also the market that we are in. So I think with if we do things, right, we can create a beautiful opportunity for 700 TV boxes. And that's what I like to do, I get a lot of energy from from that. Last week, we presented our new brands. So this will come. This will go public in April. So we had this brand reveal party in the western house here in Amsterdam, beautiful location. So we shared the video, which was really, really energizing. And after we had a big party with with everybody, and we've been dancing, we've been talking we have some drinks. This was this was beautiful. And actually, nobody was afraid of stepping in to say hippo, this is what I see. I'm a bit concerned about that, or helped me understand this. So that really gives me the impression that that we are doing the right thing here. So yeah, that's totally different than the perception that people might have had at the beginning. But as I told you, yeah, I was I rolled in several positions from Netherlands to Belgium to France. But not because I was so eager or so ambitious to to position myself in there. No, it happened because well, apparently, I I did a few good things. But it came also from I think from from who I am.

Richard Medcalf
Yeah, I get that. As you talk about that, you know, you can put your hand on your heart as you talked about people you know, and I think that must be it. You're a people person. And I almost as you're talking the Fraser kids, my mind was that people were the bridge. What I mean about that is perhaps that is the when I say serving the people actually might have been the way that you ate you moved around before because you had that you said you listened. Right. You you understood you related. And that was important. And as you came into this new role, perhaps it was the people that was the the bridge into that. Then sense of purpose and mission.

Remco Samuels
Yeah. Could be could be yes.

Richard Medcalf
Yeah. That's that's what's coming to my mind as you talk it just the energy that yeah, so fascinating. Yeah,

Remco Samuels
of course. But that also has some some negatives, of course, this this behavior, but we might get to that. I don't know.

Richard Medcalf
Well, okay, well, let's let's actually go there. Because one of my favorite questions is always asking people, you know, what's the next level because no matter how much we're how far we've got, there's always a next level for people to get to, in fact, with my fine with my clients at some of the most competent leaders on the planet, and yet inside, they just feel they're getting started and that they know there's much more that they want to do and accomplish and create. So for the business, first of all, like what's, what's the next level for Evie box? You know, like, if we were having a conversation in a couple of years? Where would you like things to be?

Remco Samuels
Yeah. So to give an answer to that question, we also need to take a step back, let's say one or two years back. So if you look at at the market in Europe, so you know, European Commission has announced that in 2035, internal combustion engines need to be phased out. So that would mean that there will be hundreds of millions of electric vehicles only in Europe, let alone we are also in the US, we are in the Middle East, we are in Asia. So this is going to be huge. So we are just at the beginning today, although we already exist since 2010. So we took we said that this is the right moment to really build some basics to be able to really scale up. So we have selected manufacturing partners that help us mainly on the AC side that can do hundreds of 1000s of stations. We are investing in our DC manufacturing capacity ourselves also to get to higher numbers. So we need to have an internal organization at work. So that is what we have been working on. So the basics are set. We are ready for a real scale. We have two new products that are really a good quality. So if you ask me now in the three next years, yeah, a year on year we have to so we have to see growth percentages that are well let's say north of 70% year on year if we don't manage that we will lose market share and we are now one of the leaders we want to remain one of the leaders so we need to grow in that that base. Yeah, so So ebooks will will really stop being a start up scale up but we will really be a hardcore scale up with streamline processes with That's really a profitable business model. So that is that is also what I of course, it's always good to be in a position where you can accelerate transition to immobility. But there's also a shareholder that expects a return on their investment in certain times. So I think now, between now and three years, this is going to be reality. And that is, that's a huge challenge, but it's really exciting.

Richard Medcalf
I mean, yeah, yeah, it's gonna be Yeah, it's a real shift from Yeah, so you've done that. You've laid the foundations, and now you have to kind of get the return on all of that. Right. And, and so. So I guess the question comes to my mind, then is, is as CEO, what will you need to do differently, where we need to put your focus differently? We'll even show up as the leader a bit differently in that new environment, if you want to multiply your impact. And what comes next can be a bit of a vulnerable question, because I'm kind of asking, like, what's your what? What are you going to have to work on yourself?

Remco Samuels
Yeah, well, I've been thinking about this. Exactly. Yeah. And it almost looks like we studied this question, Richard with the starter kit. Now, what I've told you before, I really like to stand in the middle of the Vbox. Community, I like to talk to many people, I invite them if they have questions, concerns, always invite them in my office, they always know where to find me, and I spent a huge amount of time on that. But to be really honest, that is not helping me making the biggest impact. So I still like to do that. But I need to manage my time way better. And what I do need to continue, obviously, is to communicate, where we stand, where we stand in our strategy execution, we have to, to keep on communicating that. But other than that, I need to focus much more of my time on customers, customer visits, putting the Vbox in in the news, obviously, making the brands well recognized. We also want to be a thought leader in the industry. So we are also part of charge of Europe. So that's the the Association for the industry that is actively supporting as the European Commission on regulation. Actually, we are this year Vbox, as the presidency of this alliance. There I need to put my my time. So internal communication, really important, customers really important. But I have not spent enough time in my opinion on that. And putting Evie boxsets at the center, when it comes to thought leadership and being recognized brands for them. There, I should put my time. And that is very difficult. Because intrinsically, I really want to relate to all the people here in company. I like to help them with all their problems or their questions. But I just cannot have the time for that. And that's you cannot be in all decisions as well. So you really have to let go of things, which I sometimes find very difficult.

Richard Medcalf
Yeah, yeah. Well, thank you for being honest with that. And I see that all the time. It's a challenge, right? Because we have to let go of the things that made us successful. And we know how it works. And then you get to a higher level by doing certain things. And then you realize, I, you know, I'm going to not going to get any further unless I let go and that and that can be difficult. In fact, it's why I write my book, which is called Making time for strategy, because because it's not just a productivity hack that you need, you know what I mean? It's actually you said, it's intrinsically you, you have this pull towards your people towards some of the decisions towards some of the activity. And I've talked with the client about it just yesterday, the same kind of thing. This time that she said to me, that I should be doing more customer visits, right. And I was like, we kind of got into it. Because it was a shift for her right. It was a should. And it was there was various things, you know that she was in resistance to about that the way she felt in those meetings, you know, what she adding value what she relevant, did she need to be there? And so that we had a whole conversation about how do we actually create something which makes those exciting and scary and fun. You know, all those kinds of things that we feel when we're kind of breaking new ground, rather than something that just has to be ticked off the list in her role. There's a bit of a breakthrough there. I think so. I want to kind of hear is there is that tension with you where you're kind of like the only things you know you need to do but your heart is still a little bit.

Remco Samuels
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's internal versus external. And obviously if I I have to let go a bit more of those internal activities to focus more on the external world, which is, I think, a very important thing for CEO. But I'm also a bit afraid that I lose my, my, my connection with with the workflow or with the people here. And that is really I, I fear that they're going to see me as a this is this guy's unapproachable all of a sudden, he always been there for us, and now we can ever, we can never reach him anymore. He's always out. And yeah, I really wanted to still balance that. But that is my personal challenge. Yeah. And I think it's feasible, but we need to structure that a bit better.

Richard Medcalf
Yeah, yeah. Well, thank you for for being open with it. I think it's because I think it's actually, when we speak these things out, actually, it helps us shift as well. On this. And we all have something right, we all have that thing, which which is pulling us you know, it's like reinventing our success formula, it can be quite hard. Because we know what works, or has worked. Well. Okay. It's it's been really fascinating, I guess, a couple of quickfire questions before we go. And, first of all, what's the favorite quotes that you you live by? Or that you tell your teams?

Remco Samuels
Ah, let me think what I always think is, the way to get started is to quit talking and to start doing that, because I've seen that a lot. People always have great ideas, great strategies, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. But then a couple of months later, you've come together again, so Okay, where do we stand and nothing has been done, they have been redefining their thinking, their strategy, etc. So at some point, we can't just just do it. Right. That is, that's a quote. And the other thing, because obviously, we have been under a significant amount of stress in the company, I've seen very good people, unfortunately, leave with with almost burnout in burnout situations. That was really, really sad to see. So one of my favorite quotes, there is about resilience. And resilience is about how you recharge. It's not how you injure. And that one I really like, and always give that back to, to the to the teams. So really take time to recharge your batteries. In an Eevee company. That's a nice quote as well. It's not how much you can handle. I think that's, that's an important one.

Richard Medcalf
Yeah. Nice. What about a book was a book that's influenced you and your journey?

Remco Samuels
Or maybe you heard it already a bit in the in the interview, but it's Stephen Covey. So the the seven habits of effective, Effective People. And from there, you can say that the Win Win I really like would also seek to understand before you want to be understood, that is a really important one, be proactive act. So yeah, I really liked that book. I'm not a big fan of management books, because I don't always see a big difference between theory and practice, but this one really has some actionable things in there that I've been using that in my whole professional career. That helps.

Richard Medcalf
Yeah, it's a classic. It's a classic. Yeah, thank you. So it's been a great conversation I've really enjoyed kind of getting into this whole story of of a your, your career and how you build this diverse skill set. And then what the journey was like as you came into this company, turned it around. prepared it for this hyper growth phase, and then being really honest about like, where your own stretch is gonna be as as you need it forward. If people want to find out more about you or about EB box, how do they best do that?

Remco Samuels
Well, the EvBox, they can find it on our website, so evbox.com and if they want to know more about me or that's a Remco with the c, remco.samuels@evbox.com. Again, there I might be overwhelming myself again with affectivity. But no, no, that's really what I what I could advise what I like to do. Yeah. So like I said, I really like to be very approachable guy. That's also my biggest challenge. Yeah, but I learned in life that being humble, being accessible, be very transparent. Also about your concerns, I always share my concerns also with my team. And I think with that, you can only grow.

Richard Medcalf
Yeah, well, thankyou so much. Yeah, I guess the last thought is that whole one of serendipity, right. It's like there's that balance. Sometimes people can be so focused that they actually cut out the serendipity, the chance of new conversations and the new ideas that come in. So there's always a balance. I think that we find between like being focused and like not talking to anybody else because we're doing projects, you know, versus being so scattered in conversations that we don't make things for this kind of balance.

Remco Samuels
Totally not.

Richard Medcalf
Okay. It's been a pleasure. I look forward to following you along in your journey as you go forward.

Remco Samuels
Thanks. Thanks a lot.

Richard Medcalf
Thank you.

Remco Samuels
Bye. Thanks Richard. Bye-bye.

Richard Medcalf
Bye-bye.