S8E05 ‘Triangulating’ to find great ideas, with Michel Robert (CEO, Epsilon Telecommunications)

Richard Medcalf
Hi Michelle and welcome to the show.

Michel Robert
Thank you very much. Hi Richard, How are you?

Richard Medcalf
I'm good, thank you. It's always a pleasure to meet somebody who's binational. And we were just talking about that before we started recording. I know you're a French American. and you've had a really interesting career in the global world, right? But you know, grew up in America, moved to Europe and now you run Epsilon Telecommunications, which looks like it's a really innovative network as a service provider, helping simplify how businesses connect applications and data around the world and so I'm really looking forward to diving in to understand, you know, over the last couple of years, as you took on the CEO, mantle, what's that meant for you? Right, and what's been that story? Perhaps we go any further? And before we go any further, how about just giving you a little bit of the background of, you know, how did you end up at epsilon and in the CEO role?

Michel Robert
Yeah. So Well, thanks again, for having me on. So I joined Epsilon in February of 2020. So just as the pandemic hit, and as you mentioned, Epsilon is a global business with offices around the world. So it was a bit of a challenge to where I was expecting to be able to see lots of people face to face. Unfortunately, it's it's the, the total sum of my business traveled has been one trip to Singapore. So very limited from that standpoint, I came to epsilon, after about a 12, working for 12 years at a company in, in the UK, headquartered in UK called Claranet, which is a great work experience for me but as you mentioned, I came to the UK over 20 years ago, after starting my career, actually, in the real estate business in New York.

Richard Medcalf
What kind of interests what made you What made you change continent? What was the story there?

Michel Robert
I think it was, you know, I worked for the same firm for about 10 years, straight out of university. So it was a, it was an opportunity to do something different. And because, as you mentioned at the start, I've on both French and American, I had the ability, then a French passport would would give you access to work in Europe. And I got an opportunity to come to the UK, so I took that.

Richard Medcalf
Yeah, yeah. Reminds me of my own background where I came I moved from the UK to France on a whim bought it last year and ended up lasting over 20 Yeah, so, so fantastic. Yeah. So you were at clarinets and then, what was it about Epsilon that attracted you? And got you?

Michel Robert
I think epsilon Yeah, it's a you know, really interesting business. That, as you mentioned, is focused on providing some flexibility around what is an essential service to business which is a network connectivity that enables them to run their businesses and certainly adopt a lot of the new technologies, which are cloud based technologies, where the networking component is critical to to that journey. And so that was one of the things that, you know, an alternative way of providing network services. My view was that having worked with companies around application migration and around, you know, how they take, excuse me, advantage of the cloud, what was clear is that the network that underpins those things wasn't quite as flexible as the services that were sitting on top, whether they be SAS services, or infrastructure as a service. And so there was a real, you know, kind of gap, and epsilon, and there's a few other companies, but you know, epsilon, I think, is a real opportunity to continue to grow in that space, and provide that network infrastructure that interconnection, end to end interconnection services, that support that, that the future and the growth and the adoption of cloud. Yeah, it's very interesting, isn't it? I know, when I was at Cisco, you know, we spent a lot of time thinking about that, that fact that this world where everything is so flexible on the software layer, and yet when when actually people need to spin up their networks, across multiple sites around the world, they've got to deal with a load of different providers, it can take months, I know, to establish connections at the right speed, and security, and so on and so forth. And so it's always been a pain point for enterprises. So I can imagine there is a lot of growth right now in that area. Yeah, and it's an interesting space. And, you know, epsilon has successfully developed well, before I started a platform called infine, which is a software defined networking platform, which helps in orchestrating and deploying those networks and doing it, you know, really in minutes, as opposed to, as opposed to months and weeks. So, yeah, it's interesting, really interesting space.

Richard Medcalf
So interesting company, obviously, CEO role is a coveted one. What was it? Do you think that security that role, right, what was it about, you know, your perhaps your way of looking at the business or your background that has made you the right, the right person?

Michel Robert
I think, you know, certainly my experience on a number of fronts over the last, you know, at clarinet, and also previously there to demand Dimension Data. So it was really understanding how, how you look at a business, how you look, to organize a business, grow a business, that's customer centric, and really start with a customer and look at the segmentation of your customers to to understand which customers serving today, which customers you'd like to serve, and how do you organize yourself and build a plan around that. So that's one of the things that certainly have quite a bit of experience. And the other was, at clarinet I had the benefit of, and the opportunity to be involved and lead many acquisitions in the business as well. So that's a very interesting process, and really good experience to do and certainly part of the plan, at epsilon. And we've had a recent change in shareholding in September, so that my experience in buying businesses, really, I think, also helped me in helping help help sell epsilon as well. So I think it's a combination of general general experience in the space. I have a, you know, my original when I started my career, it was in, in marketing, business development, I did some consulting as well. So I don't come from a pure technology background and I think that general broad business experiences is useful.

Richard Medcalf
Yeah, it's interesting. Both of those, those aspects that are customer centric, and the acquisitions obviously are, well, they go nicely together, right? Because there's a sense of organic and inorganic growth in that table about the customer centric business. Because on one level, you might say when everyone you know, is, you know, every business needs to be customer centric. So your what is it that you see that perhaps some business leaders might miss when they're thinking about their strategy or whatever? How does that you know, what, what are they? They're not seeing?

Michel Robert
I don't know I can come in on what they're not seeing. But what I think you really do have to make sure that you understand where your business is today. And where you're, you know, if you're coming into an existing business, where is the revenue coming in today? what's working, what's not working? So, what's the foundation? What do you want to keep? What do you want to grow? What do you want to yield? What do you want to maybe not pay, you know, pay less attention to? So I think unless you understand that it's very easy, and I've made this mistake. Previously, it's very easy to get very excited about all sorts of new ideas, when you don't fully understand the foundation on which you're either building or needing to change. So I think that first thing is it's almost a grounding. And it's, it's to develop that understanding. And then from there, you know, decide what you want to do. So, you know, in our case, we have three distinct customer groups, our carrier customers, which is where the business has come from the historic and still is the majority of the business today, but we have a desire to, to really continue to grow and serve that customer base, while getting also diversifying a little bit. So, you know, it's an understanding of that. So you can get very excited about the diversification, but forget where the majority of your customers are today. And that's, that's the point I'm trying to make is to make sure that you get that balance right lane, where you are today, what you need to do with that group, consciously before you move on to something else.

Richard Medcalf
Yeah, yeah. But yeah, perfect. Well, let's, let's talk about this transition to CEO because obviously, I know you have general management roles, you know, in, you know, in previous, in previous steps in your career. And as you look back over the last couple of years as being CEO, what do you kind of see as perhaps some of the step changes, or some of the discontinuities in, you know, from perhaps having a senior management role and being CEO.

Michel Robert
I guess the transition for me has been, there's definitely been some, some significant learning, and we'll talk I'll mention those. But I, you know, I had the benefit where I worked previously, I had a great amount of autonomy, as well. So as I was a managing director of, and responsible for a number of things, I had a great amount of autonomy. So I felt that that was very good training, for me personally, stepping into stepping into this business, the, you know, so that grounding in the background, I think was helpful, you know, dealing with one, one experience for me was dealing with a more formal board setup, and more formal board of directors, very supportive. And that's now even, you know, changed since, since our recent acquisition. So that's one thing is the experience around that, whereas previously, I was working in a less formal board setup. And, you know, the business is quite different in its global footprint. Previously, I was working predominantly in European businesses, so and this, this has offices in Singapore, London, Sofia, satellite office in Hong Kong, in New York. And so we have our teams are distributed across that, and our customers are also into Middle East Africa all over. So from that standpoint, that's been, you know, a cultural awareness, different working practices, time zones, all that stuff.

Richard Medcalf
Yeah, it's interesting. That's a great point, because a lot of general managers, you know, you might become general manager of a country, even a region and then probably the general management level above that, you know, unless you're doing a business unit or something is going to be suddenly CEO, and you have everything, and you have the whole globe as your your purview. So what you talked about cultural issues and timezone issues. What do you think is the biggest? What was the biggest learning that you had to? You had to go through when thinking about the global nature of the business? What changed and how you managed?

Michel Robert
Well, I think communication, you know, especially in the in the COVID, period, and you know, we're very focused on communication and sharing, you know, what we're up to our objectives, how we're doing, trying to get feedback from from the teams, and I think it's understanding how various cultures and the teams in various locations digest communication, and how what's the appropriate level of communication? And what do they, you know, how do they feedback? How do they question? And you as you would imagine, attitudes, and I think the opportunity is always there, but the willingness for some people to question not in A, not in a challenging way, which is always welcome. But also just generally to ask questions and understand what's going on and dig further, that each each of the markets that we're serving, and each of the customers and the customers, the employees, it's quite different. So and we've, you know, rolled out employee net promoters and other things to really engage. And I think you have to be sensitive into kind of understand how people are gonna digest information and how they're gonna respond. So, you know, everyone talks about the importance of internal communication and this is just to make sure you understand who's receiving that and how's the message going to land?

Richard Medcalf
Yeah, yeah. So, so dedication is always a big one, it makes me think about, as you were talking about that, around the kind of stories that might be underneath that. So, you know, if you look back, is there like a top tip? So what have you done? Well, you just say, looking back, right? What do you think you actually managed to do? Well, in that difficult period, obviously, with COVID, and everything else, in terms of your own CEO playbook, if you like, and what are the things you really focused on, that you think has created borne fruit? And then, you know, is there something there where you're looking back, you know, there'd be a bit of a pitfall to avoid or something which surprised you, in particular off track for a little bit.

Michel Robert
I think it's, you know, in a business that that's, that's changing and evolving, and is looking to reset a stretch, not reset a strategy, refine a strategy, execute the plan, the I think the, the temptation is always to try and do too much. So, you know, the, I think one thing that we were pretty successful on is not trying to do too much, and actually, so many good ideas, so many bright people in the company putting forward lots of ideas, the trick is always to decide which are the ones to focus on. So we'd have no shortage of ideas, no shortage of brainpower, it's, if anything, there was a need around, you know, prioritization and actually focus. So that's, I think that's, you know, something that we did pretty well. But I could have done more of, you know, be more ruthless, and really focus on fewer things, and communicate and continue to build and communicate on those things. That I think is probably a universe. Lots of us, even in our personal life, you know, yeah. So I think that's a very important thing. So that's been a big learning. So I think we've done it pretty well. I think we could do it better.

Richard Medcalf
How do you do that? How do you filter or this groundswell of ideas from your very intelligent experts around the world?

Michel Robert
Yeah, I think you have to give yourself time to think Well, first of all, you have to listen to make sure you actually really understand what they're talking about and actually give yourself some time to think and, and, you know, continue to ask questions, and to really unfold where the value lies and why are we really doing this? And is this going to make a difference to our customers? Is this something that we think is a good idea is, do they think it's a good idea, there's an analyst think it's a good idea, there's a customer think it's good idea. So think really, making sure that you know, myself and others, we really question and make sure that we feel really clear that this is going to make a difference and that I think is a very important thing. But the first step into that is understanding and I think the danger with all of us is that we think we know something and then we want to go and make a decision and move on and do something quickly. So I think you know, sometimes going a little bit slower at the beginning to make sure that you really pick the right things, and it helps you execute and move faster at the end.

Richard Medcalf
I have a thing on my desk here. You probably can't see it, especially if I don't know I'll hold it up and I claim it's a little snail. I have it there. A little stayed on my desk. Because one things I help my clients with so often it's almost the first thing we have to address because like me, I help them because I have to help myself do this is slowing down to speed up right. And friend of mine went right motor racing on a on a racetrack you know in a sports car. And when they were training him he said they said look first thing you have to do is you got to go slow to go smooth, and you go smooth to go fast and it's a great thing to have a stain on my desk because I think fast, I speak fast and my clients are the same, right? They're ambitious, they've got big things. They're, they're creative, they have lots of ideas, and there can be a bit of a hurry but when we slow down our thinking, it has helped us focus in what's that one conversation, that one move that we need to make makes everything else irrelevant, you know, and I, I think that you're totally right, this ability to give yourself time you said Give yourself time to think is so important and when we don't do it, we end up in tunnel vision, we end up in tunnel vision, and we can't see the things that's right here.

Michel Robert
Yeah, that's good. And I think that's, that's critical and it's certainly one of the things that, you know, I was just looking at my diary before this for the past week, and you just look at that, and you think, oh, there wasn't a lot of thinking time in there. You know, so I think that discipline is another, it's really important, because time is the most valuable, it's really the only thing that we have.

Richard Medcalf
Yeah.

Michel Robert
To make sure that we can filter and help, you know, allocate resources, which is basically role, right.

Richard Medcalf
Yeah, I mean, actually, in many ways, you could like an often what I end up doing with my clients as being almost a kind of a personal trainer, you know, because it's like personal trainer comes to your house, you know, and like, makes you do your exercises, right? Whereas you got to go to the gym, you might not bother going and I think often, when clients schedule sessions with me, it's almost like, well, now I know I've got an hour or whatever it is in the diary, where I'm going to have to think, yeah, and where perhaps I'm gonna better take, you know, I'm gonna be able to take my thinking in a different direction from what I might do, naturally but I think whether you have something like that or not, it is trying to find out how do you actually make that time in the diary, what I find with with people is often they'll put in something called strategic thinking time, they'll put a slot in their diary, you know, and I will say that is like a recipe for procrastination normally, because because you get to it, and it's vague, it sounds hard. Like, it sounds like the stakes are high, I'm going to think strategically about and, and so it's much easier to just do emails or work on the report, you've got to deliver for the board. Whereas if you kind of really get specific about what problem I want to think about, and then label it as that, then it becomes a bit easier to go, oh, yeah, I've got half an hour to come up with, you know, five possible ways to solve the customer churn issue or whatever it is, suddenly, then that creates a focus and the other thing I wanted to pick up on is your point around triangulation, right? You talked about triangulation around, you know, who thinks this is a good idea? Is it the analysts, you know, is it customers? Is it us? Do we think it's guided, or the team think it's a good idea? I think that that point about getting multiple angles on a problem and on multiple validation points, I think also, potentially helps slow down to thinking, to make it better.

Michel Robert
Absolutely. And I think in an industry, which is, you know, obviously moving quickly, lots of innovation, incredibly, you know, technical partners that are developing all sorts of incredible stuff, and they want to talk about it, and they want to get you to think about it, and they want to get you to promote it but invariably, you're talking and thinking and promoting something that's not really going to be adopted for, you know, 18 to, you know, whatever period of time. Yes. And so, you know, if you drink the Kool Aid too early, you can you have to keep an eye on that. But that's not that's probably not what's happening in the market today. And I think that's the balance. So certainly, you know, we've, for all the teams, we've just made some recent changes around our product management function, as well as working with our solution design teams with technical pre sales and so on, to really push them to be customer facing, and all of them to be taking meetings with customers, all of them to be engaging in support of our sales, commercial organization. Because just to make sure that we're focused on the right things and I think it's very easy, especially in an industry, as I said, it's moving so quickly, that has so much going on to get distracted and so I think that's, it sounds like a very practical and obvious thing to do but you know, I think it's, it's, it's easy to get pulled off in different ways.

Richard Medcalf
Yeah, somebody's getting everyone's speaking to customers. Yeah, it makes make some sense, right? Because it's customer needs that are going to drive the business and you're right and technology is really easy to get excited about the next thing coming down the line. You know, the every vendor will tend to have a five step or a three phase vision of the future, right? They can deliver phase one today and they're working on, you know, working on the other ones, but it's easy to kind of buy into something which is this stage unproven. Yeah, that's what you got to do, I guess. Right? But it's an interesting question. I mean, but I think what you're talking there is almost the difference between growth and scaling as whatever my previous guests put it, to scaling means, like you figured out what you're doing and just need to do it more, more of it. Whereas growth is more growing into new areas or launching new products and services and that kind of thing and doing new things. So, again, how do you balance the two of those? Right? How do you balance that like, doubling down on what today's customers want? versus, you know, for example, as you said, your carrier customer base, versus perhaps investing in things that might have a higher growth potential in the future? But it's always been the telecoms dilemma, right? I mean, I know you're not a traditional telecoms company but often, it's always just been easier for telecoms companies in the main to say, oh, we'll just put the price up by, you know, one cent or something and that have much, much more impact than innovating on some tiny little service, which isn't going to make a difference for five more years but then, of course, we've seen what's happened in a lot of the big carriers have kind of got to peak telecoms, you know, they got to peak revenues, and they didn't have the growth engines behind that. So how do you look at those, those challenges?

Michel Robert
You know, I think I think that's the question of innovation and you're saying, Here's your point around growth, and yielding? I think it's got it's got to be, it's difficult, but you got to strike that balance, you really have to think about, you know, realistic, what is it going to take to execute on a growth strategy, as opposed to a yield strategy and invariably, you have to do both, because as you're to your point, if you just do the yield strategy, then all of a sudden, you're going to wake up, and that's, you know, there's not going to be much to yield anymore and then the growth, you're going to be slower. So in terms of selecting what to focus on, you know, again, it goes back to understanding what are the customers? And what are the demands, and, you know, there's a lot of information out there as to what's working, what's not working, that's a base to start. But it's really about getting the commercial teams to be linked into, and feel empowered, to actually have an influence on it. Not to say this is a list of stuff that you sell, just go sell it, it's actually to say, Okay, so what's working, what's not working? Where are you seeing traction, what's the feedback that you're getting, and to get everybody involved and the advantage of being in a small business, relatively small businesses, you can do that, when you're in a really large business, probably harder to do that because there's kind of greater risk of silos. So that's what we're trying to actually make sure that we don't lose the advantage of being small, and don't create kind of organizational structures and things that might make sense for bigger companies. But actually, that's not really how we want to work. So that the example that I just use around the the product and solution design teams, which is really that which is you know, weak, a very traditional approach, which is something that we've had that we're trying to move away from, to make sure that those teams are, you know, super engaged in facing the customer. Yeah, they get the benefits right at the market access. Yeah. And they also feel, you know, I think one of the things that smaller businesses like epsilon, can provide, is that sense of satisfaction, work satisfaction for Peter, one of the things, the questions, I always asked her in interviews, where have you had the moment? You know, and why. So from enjoy, if you had the most satisfaction? Most fun, yeah, most, most satisfaction and why and so, you know, invariably, it'll be where it wasn't necessarily financial, it was, you know, I did this, I saw this idea, I recommended it, I was able to implement it, you know, I made this change, we change this process, we introduced this product, whatever and I think that, you know, certainly epsilon can offer that type of environment, and we want to foster that type of environment and that I think helps them to triangulation, your point previously, yeah. But it also helps, you know, employees to feel they can really make a difference, because they do. Yeah, and I always joke that if everyone's waiting to come up with the ideas, we're in big trouble, right? So yeah, it's, it's got to come from, you know, it's got to come from the team, and then I can help, you know, assess those ideas and help decide if they are a good one, but not, not necessarily to be the one generating them.

Richard Medcalf
Yeah, no, I love it. It's like you're expanding the organization or surface area, right in contact with the real world right outside of the organization, which, which is important. I when I was at Cisco, I mean, this is a great company, but there are times when this massive strategies which you felt were being developed, you know, with very little touch points, sometimes with with the outside world and you know, it was really important to kind of try to force that to happen, but it can be hard in the larger company, right? We have lots of people who are working on internal presentations and decks and all the rest of it and managing the stakeholder environment. Setting an advantage of a small company is yeah, it's exactly that. So yeah, it's a great point. Let some this kind of moved to wrap up a little bit here. Michelle has been a great conversation and I think you know, this whole question around focus and triangulation and I love that interview question as well. Right? About actually finding out where people have had fun and using that as a way to as well to as well to help people connect with what is important in their role. It's fantastic. So a few quick questions, what some what's a favorite quote of yours, like a leadership quote, perhaps, or something? Which, which has been a guiding principle for you?

Michel Robert
It's you know, the definition of insanity is doing the same thing, but expecting a different result. That to me is, you know, I think about that all the time because I think about, you know, if we're, if something's not working, but we're expecting a different result, you try and stand back and say, are we doing enough things differently? Are we trying different things we're doing, you know in your kind of in your core and your gut? Do you feel like, that's enough? Are we doing, you know, is it? Are we changing enough to expect a different result? And if we're not, then we're kidding ourselves? So that's my quote, perfect.

Richard Medcalf
Do you have an app or something on your phone that you that you really rely upon?

Michel Robert
You know, it's probably the music, it's probably music. So when I have my thinking time, and I don't, you know, I don't put that slot in the diary but if I have an afternoon, I just need a little and then I just listen to some music and it helps me.

Richard Medcalf
Yeah, nice. Actually, that reminds me there's an app I've used a little bit in the past called Brain.fm, which just comes to mind which is it's not music, but it's like this neuro you know, based kind of sounds that are really quite interesting for terminal allowing you to focus or relax or whatever, which I've used a little bit in similar circumstances.

Michel Robert
I'll try to make me smarter. That'd be good. I need it. Thank you.

Richard Medcalf
What about a book that's really influenced you as a leader?

Michel Robert
I think there's, you know, there's business books that I've read and a very simple one, which I think is quite powerful is Good to Great, which a lot of people have read and then on a personal level, and this I read a long time ago, but it is just such an amazing story was The Grapes of Wrath. You know, and in terms of really understanding he talks about struggle and he talked about the the human spirit so to two different books when when the hedgehog principle and, you know, for it again, an opening book here, keep it simple. The also the the principle out of that book, which is great, it's the right people on the bus, which is you know, hire good people, you can figure out where to put them in an organization if you have that luxury, but you know, people will make all the difference.

Richard Medcalf
Certainly, what advice would you give your 20 year old self?

Michel Robert
Take more risks. You know, take more risks and be be more confident in you know, always people talk about the fear of failure and all of that. I think that's definitely you know that you need to fail or take risk. Hopefully you don't fail, but take more risks.

Richard Medcalf
Yeah, yeah. I think I like to help clients redefine failure, you know, I mean, it's any failure when you stop. If you're keeping going, you're not really failing. Because the Churchill who said, the success is launching, you know, it's like, stumbling from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm, something like that. Which I think is a helpful way of reframing what is failing, what is success? And last question is, you know, who's an impactful CEO, you know, who's perhaps made an impact on you, again, who might be a good guest for a future episode, then what would what do you admire about them?

Michel Robert
I think about, you know, the CEO of the firm that I spent 12 years at so previously at clarinet, very, very clever guy started a business from scratch, has grown the business, you know, very successfully, and has been able to kind of balance that. What do we need to do today versus in the future? Yeah. So very, very interesting guy. Very thoughtful guy.

Richard Medcalf
Yeah, it's when when you people build a business like that? It's always yeah, there's always something always a bit of magic somewhere right there. Yeah. Fantastic. So finally, no matter where we're where we've got to, there's always a next level. So what's the next level? For epsilon? As a business? And how would you feel that you're going to need to change personally as a leader to follow that growth and to lead that growth?

Michel Robert
Well, for us, you know, we've, as I mentioned before, we've just concluded a transaction. So we've we've we've brought in some 100% New shareholders into the business. And the the main majority shareholder is Katie, which is Korean telecom. So very large organization. Very, very strong player in the telecommunications business, obviously, in Korea, but also in Asia. So for us, it's, you know, we've been acquired specifically to help enable an international expansion and act as a platform for them to grow outside of Korea there. So they're domestically dominant, there, but your opportunity to grow. So, you know, for us, that's a massive opportunity and to have, you know, the endorsement of, of a Katie in terms of their investment in the financial investor with them. So for as a CEO, I have to now be able to make sure that we take advantage of that opportunity will be left as a standalone entity. But, you know, how do you how do you strike the balance between, you know, being part of a larger corporate, a new, another subsidiary for them, but and take advantage of that, while we also maintain our independence, and maintain our agility and all the things that we talked about? Because really the value in the business? So that's, I think, the next the next challenge for me?

Richard Medcalf
Yes, it's gonna be Yeah, it's gonna be other stakeholders changed, right? And that, and it creates a new dynamic, there's there's no new things to think about.

Michel Robert
Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, so I think, you know, we're two months in, so two months it so it's very fresh, and trying to, but, you know, great opportunity, again, something that, that that's what I got to figure out.

Richard Medcalf
Yeah, that's thick. And if people want to find out a bit more about Epsilon, or about you, you know, where should they go?

Michel Robert
I think the maybe the obvious places, so that the website, epsilon website, and then the, you know, LinkedIn is I have a profile on LinkedIn. So those are probably the two sources.

Richard Medcalf
Yep. Perfect. Well, hey, Michel, it's been great speaking to you. I've really enjoyed this conversation. It sounds like you're at a pivotal point, another pivotal point in the growth of the company, right with Katie coming on board with the whole market trends, I think in your favor here. Right? And so be really fascinating to see what happens over the next couple of years. Thanks again, taking a few minutes with me.

Michel Robert
Great, thanks so much.

Richard Medcalf
Okay, so take care, speak soon.