S13E07: Choosing to raise industry standards, with Maria Carell (CEO, Revision Skincare & Goodier Cosmetics)

Marie Carell
I love the quote something is better than nothing. So I think it goes for Revision Goodier too. We didn't change overnight and quadruple the company. That never happens. It sounds like it when you look in the rear mirror but it started with smaller steps and then we got bold enough to think that we could actually transform the business models for both companies. And that's where you start to have a bigger impact internally on the company, on the customer and then consumer where we actually changed our offering and our business model. But it didn't start with that huge idea. It started with small steps until we felt the courage. Let's take a big leap and change what we do.

Richard Medcalf
Welcome to the Impact Multiplier CEO Podcast. I'm Richard Medcalf, founder of Xquadrant and my mission is to help the world's top CEOs and entrepreneurs shift from incremental to exponential progress and create a huge positive impact on our world. Now that requires you to reinvent yourself and transform your business. So if you're ready to play a bigger game than ever before, I invite you to join us and become an Impact Multiplier CEO. Maria, over the last six years since you joined Revision and Goodier as Chief executive, you've built a team that has more than quadrupled their business. And so I'm really looking forward to getting into you in with you on this topic. But I want to start by one of your counterintuitive points of view that I know you hold. You're a swede Swedish woman living in living in America. So you respect greeta thunberg and you yourself are recognized as a Global Impact leader and yet you don't believe that everyone needs to be a Global Impact leader to make a difference. So let's just start there. What's your perspective about impact?

Marie Carell
I think my big idea is a small idea. If we start there, I don't believe that we can all be gidetambai even though I admire people that are able to start a big movement. But I think the big movement is starting in the small steps and everybody around you. And as a leader I'm trying as a human being, I'm trying as a parent to break down things to small steps because the small steps actually they add up and something big is happening. And I think that goes for leaders too. If we can break it down and have if you think about the impact you have, we have about 400 employees but the have families. So let's say very close. 2000 people are directly Impact. If we can get everybody to do small things, it adds up. So my big idea is to make it simple and celebrate the smaller wins. And then I love the quote something is better than nothing. So I think it goes for Revision Goodier too. We didn't change overnight and quadruple the company. That never happens. It sounds like it when you look in the rear mirror but it started with smaller steps and then we got bold enough to think that we could actually transform the business models for both companies. And that's where you start to have a bigger impact internally on the company, on the customers, and then consumer, where we actually changed our offering and our business model. But it didn't start with that huge idea. It started with small steps until we felt the courage, let's take a big leap and change what we do.

Richard Medcalf
Perfect. So let's jump into there. Let's go kind of rewind a little bit and let's set the scene. So six years ago you joined Revision Goodier as chief executive. So just tell us a little bit, what's that business and why did you jump into that particular opportunity?

Marie Carell
So Revision Skincare is a skincare company. So we develop and manufacture products that we sell to skincare professionals. So dermatologists, plastic surgeons, medical spars, and it was a family business, started in the joined as a CEO in 2017. And why I did that, my background is more big multibillion dollar companies. This was a smaller family business, but it was a hidden gem. And I felt in this industry, there was so much to do. So if you take a step back and think about everything you see in a store, if you go online, when it comes to skincare, if it's not a prescription, it's very few regulations. You can do something in your kitchen and sell online. I can do something in your kitchen. And I felt there must be a possibility to raise the bar and do something better and also raise the expectations on everybody around us. So we went from a small, neat brand to become what we call an anchor brand that has a full offering. But I think we also challenged the industry standards. How do you prove your product? So coming from pharmaceutical, where I spent over 20 years, very inspired by how you actually prove out the drug and how you do clinical trials. And you can't just put a drug without an approval from the FDA or the similar authorities. We took the same philosophy and approach to skincare and prove it out. And I feel that's needed in this industry. It's 20 plus billion dollar industry skincare, and there are less than a handful of companies that I think is doing it this way. So I think our contribution is to just raise the bar and encourage everybody around us to do the same.

Richard Medcalf
Yeah, I love the fact that you took through your past from Pharma and you realized some of the standards there were not being applied in this other area of skincare and you decided we're going to go above and beyond. Right. You didn't need to do it, but you wanted to do it.

Marie Carell
We still don't need to do it. There is no requirement. We choose to do it. And I think that's how you can provide both for our customers, which is decisions the most discerning skincare specialist you can find, rightfully so. But I also feel that the end consumer today is so much more educated and knowledgeable and she or he deserves actually proof. If you spend a lot of money on something, whatever it is, if you digest it, if you put it on your body, it better work, it better deliver what the promise is. And it's not required today, but that's why we wanted to change it. So I think on the revision side, we took a good company with very good products and just raised the bar to change our industry. On the Goodier side, it was also transformation. So Goodier used to be a contract manufacturer organization, meaning you manufacture product very high quality. But we wanted to become a CDMO where you also develop and become integrated with your clients. So I think today you can come to us with an idea and say, I want this, but we'll make sure you have everything from your go to market strategy, your marketing approach, your products, your quality regulation, et cetera. And I think so in our case, it wasn't a revolution, but it was an evolution, taking a hidden gem and transform it to something different. And I think that's what I've been fortunate to work with my team to do the last six years.

Richard Medcalf
Yeah, beautiful. I'm really curious about this idea of we chose to, we didn't need to. I love the fact that you raised the bar. Did you get resistance either from investors or teams saying, like, why are we jumping through these extra hoops for you? Was it a question of like almost a moral imperative? Like, we we need to demonstrate these products work or was it like a strategic positioning thing, nobody else is doing this. If we do this, we're going to get more share? Was it both? What was your thinking process and did you encounter resistance?

Marie Carell
I think that's a really good question. I think we did it because we feel it's the right thing to do. And in all honesty, I don't believe we still have got the full credit for it. So we have a communication challenge to explain to everybody, why does it matter? But we did it because we believe it's the right thing to do and but it costs money. So of course, you know, our investors are patient and believe in what we're doing and I think they're very aligned with a bigger mission that we have as a company. But there was resistance and even from the customers because they don't always ask for it. So there is an educational hurdle to make sure that they actually question, not just us, they should always question what we do. They should question everybody else as well. So no, it wasn't a given because it's not required. It's not needed. But I think we start to get proof that it's working. So if you're a physician in the US, for example, you're required to continue education. It's not once you graduate med school that you're done, you need to continue. And we are actually the first non prescription product or company that is part of that education. So our science the is unbranded. It's not with our brand, it's unbranded data. But the science we have provided has that level and depth. So they feel it should be part of the continuous education. So I think it speaks we can't measure this in money, we just can't. We can't really see exactly what the return on investment is. But I think we're strong believers that this is the right thing to do. And I believe if you follow what your heart tells you and your brain tells you, it eventually pays back. So I'm not worried about that. I think it's mission driven.

Richard Medcalf
Yeah, I love it.

Marie Carell
A lot of it.

Richard Medcalf
Yeah. You went in with convictions, what I'm hearing went in with conviction. So let's go back to this idea of small is big and how that worked out as you came in. So you came into this business, you identified a key areas you wanted to shift or turn around or expand or evolve. How did you start to see this idea that you wanted everybody to be doing their bits, everybody making an impact in their own way? Do you wanted to scale your impact already across the employees and their families and beyond, as you mentioned? But how did you actually put that conviction into practice as chief executive?

Marie Carell
I think painting a picture of a future state is very powerful, even a literal picture. So we started with an exercise, where do we stand today and then where do we want to go? So it was like a from to exercise in not that many areas. I think we identified five. So I'll give an example. We basically were known for two products and we felt, well, with all the good science we have, the backing we have, we should be a complete portfolio that everybody should think about the brand and not just these products. We were only domestic only in the US. And we put a vision out there that we wanted to become a global player. And now we have a presence in 17 countries outside of the US. We felt that we were extraordinary transactional in the way we were working. So when we met customers, it was a transaction. And I think every business I've ever been at, we talk about moving up the ladder and become more of a partner. But that is so much more easy said than done. But we said this is what we're going to aspire to do. We don't just want to go sell skincare products. And what we do today is that we consult our clients, we sit down with them and look at their business way beyond skincare. What matters to them is what should matter for us. So we envisioned what we could become and painted that picture. And then we started to take small steps to get there because that doesn't happen overnight. It's like one step at a time. One step at a time. So I started my first day actually at the company, talking about the personal achievement that I was very proud of, still am, many, many years after, which is a Swedish cross country, what do you say, competition. It's 90 km. It's pretty far. And I'm not a cross country skier. And I did this with tens of thousands of people together with my husband. And it was interesting when we summarized the day, it took 8 hours for me to do it. But you have all these stations and every station where you can have something to drink. I was just amazed that I was already there. I was looking back and said, wow, did I come this far? I didn't look at how far I had still to go. And I had the best day ever. I was high on my accomplishment. My husband, he had the worst day ever. Because along the course, they count down. So you start with 90, then it says 89, 88, 87 km, how much you have still to go. And he was in his head like, oh my God, I still have this. I still have this. So when we compared notes, I was less sore, I was less exhausted. I just felt better. Even physically, he was exhausted. It was horrible. And I think it was all about the mindset. So when I joined the revision, and Goodier, I gave this example because I said, you don't do this thinking that you're going to go 90 km. That's so moralizing and demotivating. It sounds impossible, it's all these small steps. But guess what? We will get there. So I tried to establish the same kind of philosophy with these very simple metaphors, because everybody has a similar story somewhere in their life. It didn't happen overnight. So translate it to something everybody personally can relate to was a way to install the courage that we can do it as a company.

Richard Medcalf
Yeah, I love that story. Yeah, it's a great story. It reminds me one of the concepts I often teach people is I call it you got to measure your win. How far have you come? And not compare yourself against the wall that's ahead of you. Because exactly your point, Rosh, is your beautiful story. It's so demoralizing to always look at what you've not yet done.

Marie Carell
It's almost like a cliche. But I actually think, and I forget about it sometimes too. I think leaders, every level, we have a tendency sometimes to forget about that. We're so focused, what we still need to get done, what's not working, what are the weak spots. I almost need like a big sign on my desk or on my computer reminding me of this. Because it's easy to get lost in the winds when we're all just moving very quickly and we're a fast moving company. So I think it's a good reminder for everybody to pause and then translate it as something they can relate to.

Richard Medcalf
Yeah, actually, because otherwise, when you're on an exponential path, when you're on ambitious path, then you're always setting goals that are stretch goals ahead of you because it's relied to do, but our brain can't cope with it, so we always bent the goal and then a millisecond later feel bad that we haven't achieved it. We just made the goal up.

Marie Carell
Yeah, exactly. It's horrible. The other thing that we talk a lot about in this company is there is no finish line. And that's a concept that sometimes can be hard to grasp, because if you feel running fast and like, okay, once I get there, once I get there, I can pause. But that's not how the world looks like. It's a constant. There is no finish line. So if you can't figure out to celebrate along the way and make the small wins very easily, tangible, it just becomes really hard. So I'm a big believer in the small wins, even despite the fact that the sound like cliche. But there are ways to translate it. I can give you another example. We sold multiplier companies ago, small tablets, fluoride tablets for teeth health, and we had a budget, but a number is not relatable. So we translated it to how far we could go if we lined them up. And I think we went from Stock onto Paris or something. And then along the way we can say, oh, now we're in Copenhagen, we have sold this many tablets, and now we're actually somewhere in Germany. So I think to translate it to something fun and relatable is honestly more valuable than most people think.

Richard Medcalf
Yeah, it is really valuable. And to be honest, sometimes I shift with my clients, sometimes I'm working with them on their billion dollar business ideas. And then sometimes you end up going into, like, why am I never satisfied despite all my success, for example. Right. And those things, they often come because we're always in the gap. We're always in the gap to where we want to be and where we feel we are. And it's a terrible way you can be your own worst enemy at that point, living life under your own judgment permanently. So thank you for bringing that one up. Let's talk about what you described as your superpower, which is team building and keeping everybody motivated to continuously improve. This is a key part, right? If you want to multiply our impact, we do have to multiply the team that we have and their capabilities. What have you learned on that process of empowering your team? What have you found works? What have you tried that didn't work?

Marie Carell
I believe one thing that I learned relatively early is that I don't like absolutes. So I won't use an absolute. I actually get almost like a rash for an absolute. Very few things in life is always, never, but most times almost with no exception. I would say that everybody I have worked with, they're way better than they think. They're way better. So I believe some of the empowering it may be scary, is that I just trust people, that they are capable and guess what? They are more so than they think. It's almost like they're second guessing themselves more than I do and throw them out there. And then if things are not working, of course you step in and help. But I think one of my superpowers is that I really trust that people have so much growth in themselves and it's more a matter of building the comfort and belief in themselves and then actually, the rest is magic.

Richard Medcalf
Let me throw you down there, Maria, on that moment, I want to capture that. It's beautiful, right? You actually have more trust in them than they have in themselves. It's a beautiful thing. I want to point it out because I work with a lot of leaders. I see a lot of leaders and a lot of them, they're always secretly kind of complaining that they don't trust their team enough, right, that they're not sure their team have got it in them. And I believe in human potential. I believe you put the right it's like a flower. You give them the right sunlight and nutrients and water and things thrive, right? And yet humans are incredible, and yet people don't often see that. So it's beautiful that you've seen that and you're able to cool people up onto a bigger level. So I just wanted to honor that and thank you for sharing that.

Marie Carell
I am a big believer, almost naive, and that may be sweet in me, but I generally trust people until, of course, sometimes you get burned. But even with that, I think my thing is I'm almost an impossible optimist. Borderline annoying. It doesn't mean that I don't have bad days. Everybody has a bad day. But I truly believe that there is good in everybody and you just need to figure it out. And you do. So it's a combination of combining very different individuals and very diverse group. And when you talk about diversity, sometimes it's too limited. You talk about how we look and what skin color we have and what gender and what nationality. I think it's equally important to think about diversity in the way of thinking, because that's when you create the dynamic. But that's also one of the biggest challenges because, yes, it can create tension. People that are looking at the world very differently, it takes longer to get that understanding, but once you do, you get so many more perspectives and the end result is so rewarding. So if you look at every team I worked with, they may not have started that way when I joined it I may have inherited a team with lookalikes, but I always left with an extraordinary diverse team, both in what you can see on the outside, but not the least how people are thinking on the inside. So I think that is probably the best advice I can get to any leader is to not shy away from that. It's hard to and you get comfortable and you have blind spots. So even if you don't know it, you may surround yourself with people that are thinking in the same way. So it has to be intentional and it has to be almost when you're interviewing someone and feel, I don't know, that person thinks so differently. And that should be a plus. That should be a plus, not a negative.

Richard Medcalf
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Marie Carell
I'm trying to break it down to some extent. And when I'm meeting people and interviewing people, I always ask, which is like a softball, it's like, oh, what are you most proud of? And then I'm specifying it can be a small thing, doesn't need to be I want it to be work related because otherwise most people, including myself, oh, my children. And that's not the answer I'm looking for in that moment. I'm looking for something that has to do with work. And then I follow up with what is that moment when you went back from work that day and wanted to put something over you? Because that's like that was horrible. And it's so interesting to see what people answer. The questions aren't that revolutionary, but the answers differ so much. Who has the courage to actually be vulnerable in that moment and share something when they truly messed up and what did they do with that? And who gives this very generic, oh, I'm too ambitious. That's probably my biggest problem. I set too high standards. I'm a perfectionist. Those are not the answers I'm looking for. So even in that moment, you can see, are individuals vulnerable? Do they have the courage to speak up? And do they also come in with their whole selves? Because that's what I'm looking for. I'm not looking for someone that puts a work suit on when they walk into the office that morning. It has to be the full person. So I'm extraordinarily curious what makes them tick? What are their drivers? And I'm not looking for the same answer. I'm just looking for the answers. And then I'm thinking about, okay, I have one person in this team, and that person is driven by XYZ. So I don't want a copy of that. I don't want to clone. I want something different. So I tailor my questions, but I'm trying in an interview to get a little bit deeper and look into vulnerabilities without making people feel uncomfortable. So I think I have a method, honestly, to figure that out, but it's.

Richard Medcalf
Not patented, so I can't resist. I want to know for you now, what are you most proud of yourself in your work?

Marie Carell
I'm still most proud of one comment I got very many years ago. So I became a GM president when I was very young. I was just 30 years old. And I even told the people recruiting me, do you realize that I actually don't know what I'm doing? I don't have the experience. And then I had a team that ranged from 63 years old to some really out of school, out of college individuals. And this was another company that grew tremendously. It's called activist Pharmaceutical Company. And we also tripled and took something to 40 plus EBITDA margin. The results were amazing, but that wasn't the thing. So when I left and I took this public CEO job, they had a very nice celebration. And one of the guys, he was a tough cookie. He was really more of a pessimist, not really happy. The always felt like, is he really happy that we're giving what he wants to do? And his comment was, what I want to thank you, Maria, is really you made me stretch myself, and I've done things that I didn't know I could. You trusted me. And that was probably my proudest moment because I was so fresh as a leader, and I felt I don't have the experience. And I'm hiring a team with non experience, very experienced. I hope I don't mess them up for the rest of their lives. And it turned out that multiple of those team members, we were just seven from the beginning that we grouped to a much, much bigger company. Multiplier of them are CEOs and presidents. So I think it was that early trust. But that comment is still one of the best comments I've ever received.

Richard Medcalf
Yeah, that's beautiful. Thank you for sharing it. I may have to ask you as well, what's the moment that you most would want, like, to redo? What's your kind of difficult moment?

Marie Carell
I feel I came in when I moved to the US. Being Swedish and coming, perhaps we were a very Scandinavian style, that I underestimated the differences, I think you could probably say a little bit of arrogance there. It's like, hey, I can almost speak the language, still can't really speak the language, but I'm picking it up a little bit and I just assumed a lot of things. I assumed a lot of things, and that was stupid on me, to be frank. And I think it was perhaps a combination, a little bit of insecurities. You don't want to expose what you don't know. So instead of asking, I just assumed, and I made a lot of really bad assumptions and came up with some really bad ideas. And what I didn't know is that it's way more hierarchy driven in the US. And the Navy is extraordinary flat. We don't have a lot of extra respect for authorities, and everybody feels they have a say. So I threw out things like ideas, not really knowing what I was talking about, not being humble enough to really ask. And then they ran with it, and it was a horrible idea. So I find out a few weeks later that something I said in a meeting, someone took that and ran with it, and it was really a bad idea. So I asked, Why did you do that? Why did you run with that idea? Well, you said so it's like no, I was just thinking out loud. You have to tell me if I'm doing stupid things. I gathered the team at the time and said, okay, this is the deal. I don't know half of what you do. I don't know a fraction. And I'm going to come in here. Yes, I have perhaps on paper, title and a high position, but you have to help me and you need to work with me so we don't make stupid ideas or make stupid decisions and implement stupid ideas. And I think that was a very humbling moment because I walked in assuming a lot, and after that I've learned never assume. Never assume. It's the biggest mistake you can make. Always ask.

Richard Medcalf
Yeah, thank you for sharing that. That's great. It's a great example. Working cross culturally. There's all sorts of things we can get caught up on there.

Marie Carell
It's very interesting.

Richard Medcalf
Yeah. Let me ask you about revision and Goodier as you go forward. You obviously made big progress since you joined, but where would you like to take that business? What would be an extraordinary outcome as you look to grow those companies?

Marie Carell
I believe if we start again, what are we about. So the skin is our biggest organ. And I always look at the skin as the armor to everything in the world, from pollution and damaging sun. As much as we love it as swedes, it's not really good for you. And so I feel the more we can educate, the more we can help people get a healthy skin and consequential actually also beautiful skin, because there is a huge aesthetic aspect of skincare. I think that's a mission in itself. If I break it down to revision specifically, I would love to see us reach a much broader audience, make our products more available both in the United States but also globally. And I do want to simplify what can today be intimidating because a lot of people don't want to ask and you don't know. You're standing in front of a wide assortment of stuff and you have no idea what you're going to buy and spend money on. So I feel if revision can contribute to raising the bar with proof, raising the bar with education, and just actually get people to take care of their skin, because we don't, we just don't. We take it for granted until we get a problem. Because I come from the medical side, so I started in medical dermatology, so I see what happens. And many of the things you treat in dermatology is actually you can prevent them. So from a mission perspective, if we can impact people's skin and consequences, their quality of life, that would be fantastic for revision. I want us to continue to grow because the more we grow, the more we can support internally our people, the more we can support our customers, the more we can support the community we're in. So I think growth in itself is beautiful and something I hope we can continue to accomplish. But then I also want to come with that complete novel technology that is changing how we treat skin today. That's an aspiration as well. So we spend a lot of time in research, so there's a lot of aspirations, but I actually think we're on our path to execute on most of them.

Richard Medcalf
Yeah. So it's interesting, you have these two different companies, you have this global ambition, you have a mission that you're working on. I know the business as well gives back a lot into its community as well as directly commercial activities. What thinks for you? Right? Because my question I'm always fascinated on is how successful leaders need to reinvent themselves to free up their next level of impact. So how might you multiply your own impact? What would the business ne

d from you for you to play at a bigger level?

Marie Carell
So is the question how I motivate myself or reinvent myself, or is it more how? Yeah.

Richard Medcalf
What might you need to shift in your own style of leadership to move forward right. To multiply your own impact?

Marie Carell
I think I should be way more into the weeds that I still have a tendency to be. It comes from if you're very small, you have to but as you grow, there is a time and place where you need to step back and really make sure that what you're focusing on is more removing obstacles, making sure it's really servant leadership. I think that I believe in if I can remove myself from more of the daily details, I think I can have a bigger impact by connecting us with other organizations. I think, like connecting us with authorities have an impact perhaps even on the regulation, what's required to play in this space that would be to take our impact beyond our company and more at an industry level. So personally, I would love to do that combined with I always try to support not the least women, both professionally, but also that are underserved and can need some help. And I think what we do as a business is actually doing both. But I would love to have a little bit more of my time to think beyond the products and think more about the impact in society. But it goes to myself that I need to let go of a few things. And that's always difficult, always a journey, right?

Richard Medcalf
Yeah. I think probably almost everyone I speak to and ask that question, there's some variant of there's something I'm doing I need to let go of to free up time for that next level. So thank you for that, Maria. It's been a really fun conversation. I've loved getting into some of your perspectives. We've looked at the fact that small is big, that we can make impact at a small scale rather than intimidating ourselves with everyone with a huge mission. I love the fact that you looked at what you learned from Pharma, realized there was an opportunity to raise the bar in skin care on the research side, and that you decided we didn't need to do it, but we choose to do it because it's the right thing. And I think that's a fantastic leadership position in of itself. So thank you for kind of sharing that. That's inspir. That's inspiring. And then I think we spoke a lot of time around this idea of measure, the win that you've made, the progress that you've made, rather than how many kilometers of the cross country skiing you still have to complete, which is a great story. And this idea of diverse thinking, what are you most proud of, what would you fail? Is great questions just to get under the skin of people and to see am I building people who are having the same kinds of answers to the same kinds of questions? Or are people interested and focused and thinking about things in a different way? So I think those are great questions and I'm impressed at how you've been able to build these two businesses out simultaneously in so many different areas, expanding globally and keeping this mission impact focus as well as financial success. So it's been a real pleasure speaking with you, and I look forward to hearing the rest of the story as it evolves.

Marie Carell
Well, thank you. I just want to say one last thing that I think has been the guiding principle. I stole it. I didn't invent this, but I always talk about my 110 and 100 points. You get one point for an idea, you get ten for a plan, but 100 for execution. And that has been something that in every company I worked within, has been embraced, because what it really says is don't overcomplicate things. Take something, but do it. Actually do it instead of just thinking. And I think that's where we have the impact. It's easy to just get paralyzed by thinking and planning and actually not doing anything but throw yourself all the way and execute and then everything doesn't go well. But I think that has been my motto that I have tried to install, and it's actually working. So that would be my big ask of everybody. Think 110 or 100 points. And if we get a few 100 points, we can actually change the word. Sounds cliche, but it works. Trust me, I tried.

Richard Medcalf
That's beautiful. You got to get me obsessing about my own point system now. So, Maria, if people want to find.

Marie Carell
Out more about you, it's a good system, but you have already won on points with the podcast. I'm very impressed by that. Thank you.

Richard Medcalf
So if people want to find out more about you or about the business, where do they do that?

Marie Carell
I think about me personally is probably LinkedIn. So, Maria carell at LinkedIn then there aren't that many. If you find revision skincare or video cosmetics, you'd find me professionally, I would encourage people to follow us on social media. That's where I think we communicate the most. Revision skincare or Goodier goody Labs is really where to find us. And if anybody wants to contact me personally, it's just message me through LinkedIn. That's the easiest way.

Richard Medcalf
Perfect. Well, Maria, thank you so much. It's been a pleasure speaking with you, and all the best for the future.

Marie Carell
Thank you. I enjoy this. Thank you very much.

Richard Medcalf
Goodbye. Well, that's a wrap. If you received value from this conversation, please do leave us a review on your favorite podcast platform. We deeply appreciate it. And if you'd like to check out the show notes from this episode, head to Xquadrant.com podcast, where you'll find all the details. Now, finally, when you're in top leadership, who supports and challenges you at a deep level to help you multiply your impact? Let's discover more about the different ways we can support you@xquadrant.com.