S13E34: How to use ‘story doing’ to create systemic change, with Marci Zaroff (CEO, ECOfashion Corp)

Marci Zaroff
I always say 1 plus 1 equals 11. So for me, you know, you know, going into supply chains and then ultimately on the front line, convincing consumers and brands and retailers and and investors that what I was doing was something, you know, also to join me, not just by product, but to actually understand why I was doing this. And for me, the no compromise equation is not just about doing less harm. It’s also about doing more good. It’s leveraging the power of business to transform positive change.

Richard Medcalf
Welcome to the Impact Multiplier CEO podcast. I’m Richard Metcalfe, founder of Xquadrant, and my mission is to help the world’s Top CEOs and entrepreneurs shift from incremental to exponential progress and create a huge positive impact on our world. Now that requires you to reinvent yourself and transform your business. So if you’re ready to play a bigger game than ever before, I invite you to join us and become an Impact Multiplier CEO. Today, I speak with Marci Zaroff, who is the founder and CEO of Ecosystem Corp. Now ecosystem was The term that she coined back in 1995 well ahead of the sustainability revolution. And she’s on a mission to marry the world of sustainability with the world of fashion. And, not normally, it’s Not for me that was done before, but she’s built a business with multiple brands working with some of the top players in the industry To really look at this conundrum, how do you create products that really are at a higher quality, more sustainable, better for the planet, And keep them price competitive as well as beautiful and attractive for customers.

And actually marrying these 2 things together required innovations And a new way of thinking, which we get into in our discussion. We also talk about what it was like to be ahead of your time in changing an industry. And she’s also got a very unique, what she calls, a story doing approach to actually win over The different partners, suppliers, customers, perhaps policymakers in her ecosystem to get them to become part of the movement. This is a fantastic conversation with somebody who’s really at work making a difference and changing her industry. Enjoy this conversation with Marci Zaroff. Massey, hi, and welcome to the show.

Marci Zaroff
Thank you. Great to be here, Richard. Nice to see you.

Richard Medcalf
Yeah. It’s great to see you too. Hey. I’m looking forward to this, because I know that you’re a trailblazer, and you’ve really been focused for many years now on reinventing the fashion and textile industry, and doing that as as as somebody on the cutting edge, doing things that haven’t been done before. And, I’m just curious to dive straight into that as to, like, what got you Engaged on that mission in to to transform that sector, and and what’s it like being on the cutting edge? Like, what’s what’s that experience?

Marci Zaroff
Be careful what you wish for, right? So well, what got me into it was, You know when you think about how most people, become more conscious in their lifestyle choices, it usually starts with food, so I started my career in 1990 where, I cofounded a school, today it’s known as the Institute For Integrative Nutrition, which is the world’s largest holistic health certification program, to become a health coach. I think the program now is in, a hundred 50 countries around the world and nearly 200,000 people are certified. So that really got my feet wet as far as understanding how to, you know, change the way we think about what we put in our bodies. Right? You are what you eat. Let food be thy medicine, and really help others go on that journey. And that sort of led me similar to Maslow’s hierarchy of needs, right, like our first basic need being food, and then we evolve and say, what else? What’s next? Well, shelter and clothing. And when I started to unpack, you know, the interconnection of agriculture and popular culture from food to fiber and how they work together, It dawned on me that there was a missing link and that you couldn’t really support one part of the equation without the other, and so in 1995, I coined and trademarked the term eco fashion. People thought I was crazy when you talk about being a trailblazer.

You know, people used to say to me, Marcy, peep you know, people are either into fashion and looking good in the material world or they’re into that The humanitarian, social consciousness, environmental awareness, but those 2 worlds are very dichotomous. They don’t coexist, and I said, well, I can’t be the only one on the planet that wants both, so my mantra has always been kind of a yes, and type of mantra. Right? Give people the yes, and as a business leader, it’s always about leading with what people want. In food, that’s taste. In beauty products, it’s scent and functionality. In fashion, it’s style and quality and price, and then ultimately in business it’s profitability, and so when you start to talk about giving people everything they want and, oh, by the way, making a difference to human and environmental wellness or farmer and worker welfare or future generations. Now it’s a value add. It’s not about sacrifice or deprivation.

It’s about giving people more, and that’s always been kind of my philosophy in life work built on that.

Richard Medcalf
Yeah. You saw these things that people didn’t see as going together and said, well, what if we bring them together? Right? I mean, it’s just a great way of innovating is to take things which people think is a linear axis And, and say we can do both, so that’s…

Marci Zaroff
Yeah. And I’ll I’ll just say, you know, Jonathan Swift, who was always a big creation of mine, you know, wrote all of his travels and taking people on journeys. And, you know, this whole thing for me, it’s like Lao who once said The journey of a 1000 miles begins with 1 step, but Jonathan Swift once said vision is the art of seeing things invisible, And so to me, it’s about setting that vision when you see it, when it speaks to you in your gut, right, which is kind of the lifeline to your own truth or, you know, what you believe and where the passion comes from. You know, when you set that intention, then it’s a matter of just starting that journey 1 step at a time, and as I’ve said, you know, It’s been a long and winding road, but, you know, continue to move forward and learn new things every day along the way.

Richard Medcalf
Beautiful. So, yeah, you said you were ahead of your time, right, or either you were pioneering. And so what is your sense of, like, the unique challenges When you are creating a new model or you are perhaps ahead of your time, right, because timing can be everything, you know, and so being ahead can be hard.

Marci Zaroff
Yeah, well, I always say I’m a walking cliche, right? What doesn’t kill you makes you smarter and stronger and clearer and better at everything that you do, so, yeah, I mean, In the early years, probably my greatest challenges were, number 1, it didn’t exist, right, so I had to think out of the box and build supply chains and convince farmers and factory workers that, you know, my vision was something worthy of, you know, buying into and believing in me and helping me get there, right, because I always say, 1 plus 1 equals 11, right? We’re exponentially stronger together than apart. We have to collaborate or co create to unlock the potential, right, of what doesn’t exist, so for me, you know, going into supply chains and then ultimately on the front line convincing consumers and brands and retailers and, and investors, really, that what I was doing was something, you know, also to join me, not just by product, but to actually understand why I was doing this. And for me, you know, the no compromise equation is not just about doing less harm, it’s also about doing more good. It’s leveraging the power of business to transform, you know, positive change, you know?

Richard Medcalf
Okay. So there’s a lot of things in The already, so let me let me get Kote there. So building an ecosystem, you know, supply chain, the brands, the retailers, consumers, What was the kind of how did you get them on board? Because there’s a moment when you had nobody on board. Right? You didn’t have, like, any of the pieces. You’re you were just you. And so what was the angle you took? Was it like a basically like a here’s a great business proposition angle? Was it like a, This is a mission, and it’s gonna inspire you to be like, to bet on this. Was it Bet on me as an individual. How did you kind of, land those first supporters?

Marci Zaroff
So given that I came out of a holistic mindset, having integrated Eastern and Western philosophy, right? When I trademarked and coined the term eco fashion in 1995, you know, with this intention of building from the source to the story and vertical integration that could connect the dots of what I was doing, how I was doing it, why I was doing it, when I could back it up with transparency and authenticity and and, you know, things that people are talking about today, right, farm to table, going back to the source, you know, in my brand, farm to home, going back to the source, and it’s very metaphoric, right, for where, you know, within us, the the light turns on where we have that awareness inside at our own source, Right? It’s that gut level again, and so, you know, again, metaphorically, for me, how do I got people to join this vision will speak to them on that soul level and inspire them with, hey. How great is this jacket or this shirt or this dress or, you know, and it’s priced, you know, in a way that is in your, you know, in your budget, right, it’s value, but it’s also or and values. Right? So it’s not about giving something up. It’s about getting more. And with My 1st brand that I started in 1995 under the canopy, we started as a mail order catalog, and that was kinda before the whole d two see, you know, direct to consumer, that was our version of direct to consumer, but it was about storytelling, but it was also about story doing. So what I would do is I would unlock, at the farm level, you know, relationships with the farmers and the seed, right, which represents life. And then I would go in the factories, and I would talk about how can we empower more women to be in leadership, how can we be, you know, paying people fair wages, looking through the lens of ethical manufacturing, you know, reducing our impacts in every single touch point of the supply chain and then connecting that to the story, right? So fast forward, you know, three decades later that I’ve been doing this. This is what everybody’s talking about today.

Right? They’re talking about, you know, social and digital media and storytelling and transparency CEO digital, you know, traceability and how can we, you know, connect the dots between, you know, what we’re doing and what we’re saying, and, You know, when I first started under the canopy when we first moved into, you know, from catalog, where we were storytelling to the consumer, to partnering with retailers. It’s very interesting because a lot of those initiatives with retailers were being driven by the marketing departments. So for instance, we launched Target’s very first organic program they ever did in textiles, and it was driven by their CMO versus today where it’s their product design and development teams that are the ones that are driving these kinds of changes. I also partnered with Whole Foods Market and with Aveda, to launch textiles for The. So that cocreation was about connecting the dots and helping people, you know, have that awareness that it’s not just what we put in our bodies that matters. It’s also what we put on our bodies and around our bodies and in the air and water we’re depending on around the globe and our, you know, ecosystems that we have a relationship with, that we need to thrive so that we can thrive.

Richard Medcalf
Yeah. Yeah. It’s it’s amazing working all these levels at once. Well, I love the visual phrase around storydoing and not just storytelling. Did I understand that as, like, as an invitation to these different partners to be part of the story? Is that really what you mean? Like, be the Be the purse the brand that stands up for this or this on the cutting edge and that you’re inviting them into the story.

Marci Zaroff
Yeah. In a lot of ways, I would say my life work has been like the intel inside for many brands and retailers. For instance, at the beginning of COVID, I forged a partnership with QVC, and they said, Marcy, CEO, you know, you’re creating these products through my company Eco Fashion Corp, and can you also create brands for us and go on air? So we created 2 brands. 1 was called Farm to Home and 1 is called Seed to Style, and The is obviously Seed to styles apparel and farm to home is home textiles, and it was connecting literally from the farm all the way to the shelf, seed to shelf or or farm to consumer and being able to talk about, you know, this is amazing product, and, oh, by the way, It’s also, you know, environmentally conscious and socially responsible and, you know, focused on climate action, but you’re not giving anything up, so when I wrote my book, you know, Eco Renaissance, CEO creating a Stylish, Sexy and Sustainable World, You know, I talk about how there are these principles across all the different sectors, right, and it’s, you know, they’re the 5 CEO: creativity, consciousness, community, connection and collaboration. So going back to retailers and brands that I’ve partnered with, that CEO creation or that collaboration is is all about win win. Right? How can I be a halo for them so I can tell an authentic story, but I can also back it up with, you know, the products that I’m making or the supply chains that I’m building with them or, you know, for them?

Richard Medcalf
Yeah. I mean, what’s coming to mind as you talk about this, all these incredible partnerships and opportunities you’ve created is, And, obviously, you wrote your book and you, you know, had your brand term and, you know, and you were focused on building out this kind of thought leadership as well as the businesses. I’m kinda wondering on the relationship between, you know, you were starting these small businesses from the start, getting them growing. And And then, obviously, when you do that, there’s quite a lot of outward bound approach. You know? You gotta get out there and get the message out. And at the same time, you had your book, And you are probably, reactive in that space as a thought leader. And so The from that, there might have been some inbound requests or opportunities that came from your profile. So I’m kinda wondering what your experience was of that.

Like, did you find, actually, it was more like, I’m gonna pick up the phone and make, like, 1 call at a time and, like, make this thing happen, Or did you financially focus more on that awareness raising of, you know, yourself as a leader in the field, and that created opportunities? Which was the biggest well, how did it shift over time perhaps might be a question.

Marci Zaroff
Yeah. I mean, it’s a it’s a good question, and I think, you know, how I would answer it is It’s not 1 or the other. It’s a convergence of, you know, trying to solve for what are the problems out there. Right? Like any good entrepreneur, we’re we’re looking at what’s the problem and how can we be a solution provider. Well, to me, the issue was always that the consumer didn’t get it. Right, so how can I educate consumers? Business and businesses, you know, whether it’s brands or retailers The I was partnering with, didn’t know how to do it, so then it was, well, how can I help them or do it for them or with them? Now there’s even government policy, right, which is underway, So, you know, for me, it’s also about how do I integrate that knowledge, and I’ve been very instrumental through the course of my career in writing standards and certifications and doing policy work. And, you know, I was on the board of directors of the Organic trade association, which built the organic industry in America and, you know, unlocked what was, you know, a a handful of people that all knew each other 30 years ago to a $67,000,000,000 industry in the US alone today. Right? And, you know, 83% of Americans are now eating organic food, at least occasionally.

I mean, this is all over the world, so I have seen the growth of that movement by by everybody sort of working together, so you know, and working with the government and working with consumers. Right? It’s kind of a trifecta. So the way that, you know, I really believe we’re Accelerator change and really scale these, you know, positive Impact, to engage, the next generation, is to give them what they’re looking for, which is transparency, right, which is accountability, and which is affordability and accessibility, At the same time that when you talk to brands and retailers, what they want is, you know, they want to make sure they’re doing it right because there’s risk in in it. There’s, you know, the social media mafia that will attack you if you’re not doing it right, right, so risk mitigation. They wanna, you know, they want efficiencies because they don’t wanna pay more, ultimately, because the way they’re structured, especially in my industry, You know, it’s The the departments are very siloed, and the way incentives are built and margins are built is very old school. The systems really are very outdated. You know, it’s almost like trying to move a Titanic, so for me, how I’ve been able to unlock that at the brand and retail side is meet them where they are, to understand where their pain points are and help them navigate those complexities, and that’s where I can really leverage my experience, my, tenacity as an entrepreneur and being very nimble and being able to figure stuff out, right, like, which is, as a big company and with limited resources and oftentimes limited people, they don’t know how to do The. Right? So how can we create a win win? And it does always start with understanding sort of where, you know, things get stuck and and helping to sort of just like energy doesn’t want to get stuck, right, because then it can’t flow, how do you, you know, how can you actually help them and, be a solution provider, you know, because if not a part of the solution, you’re part of the problem, right? And as Albert Einstein once said, you know, we can’t solve today’s problems with the same consciousness that created them, right? So when you go into these old dated systems and you have a different perspective because you’re outside of it, You can help sort of elevate the consciousness by virtue of, you know, again, meeting companies where they are and taking them step by step on the journey, making it easy for them.

Richard Medcalf
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Yeah. I mean, it sounds like a large part of what you focused on is is mobilizing the ecosystem in new ways. Right? So it’s the it’s not the individual components. It’s how the flow is between them. Right? What happens between Components. And and would you say that the is there, like, a particular I mean, obviously, you talked about this either or. That might be the key thing. But, like, is there some other Mindset shift that you had to promulgate across these ecosystems to get people to do things differently, Something that was holding them back until you showed up?

Marci Zaroff
Well, I would say that historically, when you talk about you know? And, again, my book being about the eco renaissance, it’s about a rebirth of humanity, that’s what a a renaissance is, right, or a rebirth, and eco being that we’re all a part of a collective ecosystem, I mean, it’s that holistic lens that we just spoke about, and I think there were always stigmas attached to this movement that, you know, number 1, that you had to give up something. So in food, people, you know, equated healthy food as it doesn’t taste good, or they equated beauty products that they don’t work, you know, clean beauty, or they equated fashion The it’s crunchy, frumpy, boxy beige and boring, right, or overpriced. So the 2nd stigma being, Oh, I’ve got to pay a lot more for it, right? The 3rd stigma being, Well, how do I really know? And so for me, you know, addressing those stigmas from the standpoint of, you know, again, the premise of my book, through the lens of design, we can change the world, so we have to redesign the systems that aren’t serving us. In food, you have to make it taste great, and then, oh, by the way, it can also be you know, healthier and organic and regenerative and all that. Same thing with beauty products, you wanna, you know, make sure they work, they smell good, but then they can be nontoxic, and the same thing with fashion, so, you know, for me, it’s always been about, you know, understanding why it hasn’t been embraced and Multiplier sort of this meta vision for me has been, how do I change the norm to the alternative and the alternative to the norm.

Richard Medcalf
And and do you find it’s it’s inspiring, but do you find that, like, there are barriers? Like, at some point, you go, it is have to get it’s gonna have to be more expensive, right, for example. So how do you deal, like because presumably, if you raise standards in certain areas, raise quality the bar of quality. I mean, there’s a reason why things the bar has been low, right, generally because it’s cheaper. So how do you kinda reconcile, By raising the standards and keeping it affordable for people.

Marci Zaroff
Yeah. There’s there’s 2 ways. So first of all, The pricing models that we see today out there are just they’re they’re they’re so, they’re not they haven’t kept up with the times, right, they’re they’re not, relevant to where they really should be, so I think there needs to be a little bit of a reset anyway, but now having said that, for me, vertical integration is about starting at the beginning and building up and unlocking all the inefficiencies, so in a garment, Most people don’t realize that that shirt you’re wearing could have changed hands 10 times in a supply chain, And then if the designer of that shirt sent the tech pack to a factory and expected the factory to build that shirt, they’re gonna source down the supply chain, and they’re gonna rely on brokers, agents, middlemen and all kinds of people that are gonna take a little cut or another penny here, another penny there. We start at the ground and build up the supply chain, so I’ve always been very, committed to, you know, unlocking sort of a a, all the inefficiencies so that I can add value, pay the makers, you know, the farmers and the factory workers more, but keep the end price competitive, so that now it’s not why would you buy sustainable apparel and home textiles, it’s why wouldn’t you? If you can have everything you want and, you know, know that it’s making a difference, then that’s what’s going to transform this movement, and that’s what I’ve always been very focused on. And part of that is these partnership deals, right, because no The company can do this alone. The innovation and The, you know, is really, contingent on collaboration, because a lot of these, you know, whether it’s technological innovation, it’s, You know, education or storytelling, we all need to hold hands, and I’m, chair of the board of an organization called The Textile Exchange, And so I also, in my work, not only am I looking at how do I connect consumers’ policy and business, but I also am very active on the nonprofit side because it’s companies or organizations like the The stock exchange that are bringing together hundreds of companies. In fact, we had a conference in London last week. We had 1500 people there and another 500 virtual.

We had 800 companies, from, I think, 60 different countries around the world, all part of this event, and we’re all, you know, maybe speaking different languages, but we’re all speaking the same which of changing this fashion and textile industry, which is a $3,000,000,000,000 industry.

Richard Medcalf
Beautiful. Yeah. Thank you. That’s great insights on How you raise the bar and keep things affordable, right, by looking at the business model and and vertical integration and partnerships. So that thank you. That’s really insightful. Let’s move on to my from my favorite questions, which is, how is multiplying your impact? Right? So I know that you’re somebody who’s Still in your big mission. So what’s it gonna look like for EcoFashion Corp to to multiply its impact Over the next few years, you know, what what what’s what’s that gonna look like?

Marci Zaroff
Yeah. Well, you know, we are relatively speaking, we’re just getting started, although You know, EcoFashion Corp is really 30 years in the making for me. We’re working with some very, very large global companies right now. We have the largest regenerative cotton farm project in the world in India where we also have offices and our sourcing and production teams, and for me, I’ve always been very passionate about soil health because what people don’t realize is that soil is like the Skin of the Earth, it’s meant to protect us, and when it’s healthy and The biodiversity and the ecosystem is thriving, it will sequester carbon out of the atmosphere, so the industry, and I talked about the textile exchange, we have a commitment to reduce our carbon footprint by 45% by 2030, and so both at the Eco Fashion Corp level and as a, you know, global fashion and Textile industry, you know, climate action is paramount right now, right, and it’s not about staying ahead anymore. It’s about not being left behind. So at EcoFashion Corp, we’re meeting these companies, you know, to help them meet their science based climate targets, helping them diversify out of China, helping them, you know, integrate regenerative and organic cotton, you know, as the source to their finished cotton textiles products, you know, their sheets, their towels, their robes, their t shirts, their denim, their sweaters, and cotton is a third to the world’s textiles, right, so it’s a huge unlock to actually expand sustainable agriculture by making products, and that’s what we’re doing at EcoFashion Corp. We have a couple of our own brands, as I mentioned earlier, another brand being Yes And, which stands for, you know, again, yes, you can have everything you want and make a difference in the world, style and sustainability, and that’s a partnership platform, and then we have, you know, again private label manufacturing like the Intel Inside of The movement that, is a tech enabled, and very disruptive supply chain platform that, we partner with brands and retailers on, So it says scale that. Yeah. Continue scaling that.

Richard Medcalf
Yes. It sounds like you got, like, a retail play and a wholesale play, if I understand that, as a you’re an enabler as well To other brands?

Marci Zaroff
Yeah. I mean, the private label manufacturing side is really where, you know, the biggest scale is because we’re working with, You know, we say mass to class, you know, multibillion dollar companies, that are trying to find solutions. Right? And so serving others is serving ourselves. We’re all in this together, and, as we continue to, you know, help them, whether it’s building, you know, organic underwear for one of The biggest underwear brands in the world or it’s, you know, baby programs or it’s, you know, lingerie, you know, we’re working on all different product categories, and It’s making it easy, affordable, accessible, and and keeping it authentic, because that is one of the big risks, is greenwashing as well as green hushing, right? So companies that are, you know, afraid that they might not be doing it right, and then companies that are think they’re doing everything right, but are scared to talk about it. So we’re we’re trying to solve for all these challenges.

Richard Medcalf
Yeah. It was. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Amazing. What what’s what’s gonna be the stretch for you, Mercy? So, as we scale and multiply the impact we wanna make, there are there are thresholds where we have to become a different kind of leader to get into the next part. And so what comes to mind? You know, what’s gonna be your personal leadership Challenge as you move into this next phase of scaling?

Marci Zaroff
Yeah, so, the business that I do takes good people, seasoned people, you know, I’m really looking to, expand my team, and that is, you know, tied to resources, this is a, a world un You know? We’ve never seen anything like this unparalleled in terms of the challenges. I feel like I’ve been dodging grenades now for the last 3 years Building my start up, in a world that has been, you know, just wrought with, you know, whether supply chains, logistics, costs, Fraud, I mean, you name it, you know, inflation, economy, war, climate change, you know, it’s all kind of coming at you from every direction, and you have to just stay focused, and for me, you know, it is about getting to, you know, getting to the big picture, getting to, you know, where I believe we have to keep working together to drive that change, and, So the challenges for me today are probably making sure that I don’t run out of fuel in the tank so that I can continue expanding and scaling what I’m doing, and making sure I, you know, continue to find great people who share my vision. And but, You know, at the end of the day, I think one of the things that makes me very excited that I pinch myself is I think the next generation is waking up to wanting, you know, what we say are the 5 p’s, right, of of good business, which is people, planet, prosperity, passion, and purpose. And, you know, they’re thinking differently about business today. They’re thinking about, you know, doing well by doing good in the world and, you know, not just hanging their hat on sort of old school business models that don’t serve us, that have been depleting and destroying, and, you know, polluting and degrading the ecosystems that we depend on. And, you know, what people don’t realize is the fashion industry is one of our leading causes of air and water pollution, right, second to coal, and when you look at, you know, the carbon footprint of fashion and textiles, You know, you’ll see these statistics range from 4 to 8% depending on if you include agriculture and transportation, but it’s a big one, and 20% of the world’s fresh water pollution, and, you know, so it’s how do we minimize our impacts on and reduce them, you know, on energy, water, climate, you know, social justice issues, chemical use, but not, you know, but not in a way that makes people feel like they’re giving anything up, and, and as I’ve said before, it’s about yes, and.

Richard Medcalf
Yeah. Beautiful. Masih, what I love about this conversation is, first of all, you are extremely passionate about the topic. It comes across. You’re definitely on a mission. You’re very well read. You’ve got the numbers. You you you know, you know, the situation.

That expertise, I think, acquired over the last 30 years, you know, really comes out. And, yeah, you’re you’re an innovator. Right? You’re not prepared to accept the trade offs that have been the the the standard in the Impact, and you’re looking to kinda combine things to find that that both and answer. And that’s perhaps Be where you’ve created new opportunities in the market and and and in businesses that are scaling. So thank you so much for this conversation. It’s Been a lot of fun. Wish you all the best. You’re gonna follow the journey as you revolutionize the sector. Continue to be part of that. And, yeah, thank you for sharing the, the insights with us.

Marci Zaroff
Thank you. Well, thanks so much for having me today, and and, just end with another favorite quote, which is work is love made visible, from The book called The Prophet by Khloe Ghabran. So when you love your work, it’s not work, it’s love, and I think the world needs love. And, so we can integrate our personal and professional values and cocreate, you know, better world together.

Richard Medcalf
Thank you.

Marci Zaroff
Thank you so much for having me. Have a great rest of the day.

Richard Medcalf
Thanks. Bye now.

Marci Zaroff
Cheers.

Richard Medcalf
Well, that’s a wrap. If you received value from this conversation, please do leave us a review on your favorite podcast platform. Would deeply appreciate it. And if you’d like to check out the show notes from this episode, head to expodrint.com/podcast Podcast you’ll find all the details. Now finally, when you’re in top leadership, who supports and challenges you at a deep level To help you multiply your Impact. Discover more about the different ways we can support you at xquadrant.com.