S8E15: A hub that attracts top tech talent, with Jason Wojahn (CEO, Thirdera)

Richard Medcalf
Hi Jason and welcome to the show.

Jason Wojahn
Hi Richard, How are you?

Richard Medcalf
I'm great, thank you. I'm really looking forward to this. You've built a 600 person business operating in 11 countries in just one year. So, and that was in the middle of a pandemic, and everything else that we know about and I'm really, really excited to listen to this this conversation, have this conversation around, you know, how you did that? And, and what have you learned in though in a very familiar, tumultuous year, right pivotal year in your own career as you became CEO and founder of the business, of Thirdera? So, perhaps before we get to that, don't just kind of give us a bit of introduction? Like, how did you get to the point where you decided to launch Thirdera and just what is the business? How does it operate?

Jason Wojahn
Yeah, so, you know, we are a ServiceNow focused consultancy, at Thirdera, our job is to help clients and help you know, consumers or users of ServiceNow get the most value out of their implementations, their configurations, and help them manage the services in an ongoing fashion, it's a really interesting place to be because at the end of the day, what we do with the platform is we help enterprises transform to digital ways of working, we use that in the context of workflow automation and, and really help them not only internally, in their IT departments or, or other kind of sub departments in their business, to modernize the way they work within the context of digital communication, digital workflow, digital automation, but we also get to work with their businesses, their end consumers, etc. In that context, as well. So, you know, as as I like to say, we're a cloud focused consultancy, we're focused on enabling the best value or most value for a product called ServiceNow and, and everything we do revolves around helping customers optimize the way they work, helping businesses, optimize, they work the way they work in a digital context.

Richard Medcalf
Fantastic. So what led you to found the business that found the business and become a CEO? What was that? How did you get to that? Right? Because that's, it's a big thing you've taken on here.

Jason Wojahn
Yeah, I would love to say, when one day, I woke up and said, You know, I'm going to be a CEO, when I grow up, I never did that. You know, I was, I was actually in music, in sports, when in high school, and then on to college and, you know, actually took my first job in technology, really thinking I was going to try to save some money and go back and maybe get a graduate degree or something like that, but ended up really humble beginnings in tech, starting in a call center, you know, doing technical support calls over the phone, and then eventually grew that into, into helping and, and customers from a technology perspective, and then into management and into leadership and I've really just really found, you know, something that I've always found terribly interesting in technology, which is, it's always changing, it's never the same twice. Right? And, and, you know, getting a chance to see I started my career at IBM actually, and, you know, getting a chance to kind of see it done well, at scale, you couldn't help but kind of get into the weeds a little bit and, and try to try to, you know, understand what was next and why it was next and, and it's certainly trying to address some of the limitations in support industry and things of that nature, which of course, led me to consulting, and, and then to, eventually to the service. Now, ecosystem, which has been, for me been really a fascinating place to be. There's, there's a, I think, as we were saying earlier, I feel like I get to solve these little puzzles every day, where customers are trying to establish value, or trying to improve their businesses and, and they rely on us to help them achieve that, which is, which is a wonderful thing to do.

Richard Medcalf
Yeah, so you got into the ecosystem and then what was was that pivotal moment when you said, you know, I can build something here?

Jason Wojahn
Well, you know, we've, the the market is, is very, is very segmented, but it's also very fast growing cloud, you know, was was a really difficult thing for people to adopt, but as you as you start to get into those, you know, into those details about what's next in your technology, you know, how are you using it to enable value for you, you know, those types of things. You know, what I observed in the early days of my career, it was all about the technology, it was all about making sure that technology function function correctly. It was all about, you know, do you have do you have a right technology enabled in a segment? Are you using it in the right ways, it was all kind of focused on that. What I love about the cloud in particular is it's really abstracted that you don't have to worry about the infrastructure, you don't have to worry about, you know, the underlining code or the data center those types of things, you just get to focus on the result of technology and, and enabling better ways of working and, you know, if you if you find a satisfying life and helping people improve, or reach or higher, higher states of maturity, those types of things, you can't help but understand that with technology have tremendous opportunity to do just that.

Richard Medcalf
So, yeah, but, but not everybody who wants to be a consultant ends up building a 600 person business in 12 months or or there abouts? So what was the story there? You know, you went big, right? Very fast. Growing pretty fascinating.

Jason Wojahn
Yeah, we're growing very quickly. The story of third air itself is, you know, it's interesting, the growth as an outcome of a lot of things that we've put into it, the growth is just an outcome of, of, you know, making sure that we are addressing, you know, from a business perspective, we're addressing supply issues, skill shortages, you know, things of those natures, but, but most importantly, you know, what, why are we growing so fast? How are we growing so fast? I think, for us, it's, it's, it's quite simple. We are trying to attract value for our clients, we are trying to help them achieve, you know, value states in an area in a segment of technology, but rapidly changing, you know, that that resonates with clients, you know, we didn't set out necessarily, certainly, we've always set out to build a successful company over the last year. But I think the way we've scaled so quickly is really that our purpose, our vision, our mission, and our values all have come together in a bit of a force multiplying effect, it's allowed us to really attract resources from our ecosystem to come join the party, so to speak, it's we've had businesses that have agreed to kind of align their their mission vision purpose to ours, I think we've provided a good catalyst for for change in the ecosystem. And I think that at the end of the day, people like to work with like minded people that share a like minded objective. And so what is it teacher?

Richard Medcalf
Then sorry, for interrupting? But what is it that that makes it that attractive? Because like I mentioned, there's lots of consulting companies, various sizes, who work in this ecosystem. So I'm sure they're all trying to deliver value for their clients. So what is it you think that allows you to bring these things together? In such a way? Why are you

Jason Wojahn
You know, I think I think in our space, there's tons of options. And when you have, when you have a lot of different options as an individual, or as a client, or, or even different options from businesses and approaches, you know, you do tend to see data, you do tend to see individuals start to collect together in certain ways. And I think what we've provided is a very fertile ground for individuals to come in and, and, and not be overburdened by process or, you know, corporate ways of working or politicking, to say, you know, we're here to enable client value, we're here to build a company we all want to work for, you know, those are our first principles and our lowest common denominators. And if that resonates with you, then great come along for this ride, and let's go enable this value. If that doesn't resonate for you, well, then you've got tons of options. And you know, you can always go someplace else and do that. And, you know, I do think in these these segments of technology, where there's a lot of optionality for the individuals that are working there, you know, if you can, if you can help, you know, keep your company contextual, if you can help, you know, kind of make sure you're reinforcing the right word patterns or a day in day out basis, then then you really have something that that people will collect, together to achieve. And I think that's what we've done here.

Richard Medcalf
Yeah, I love it, I kind of have this idea of the lighthouse effect, I'm calling it you know, it's this idea of, you got this fragmented world in fragmented industry with lots of options for talent. And everyone tech industry knows right now in deep tech talent in all sorts of areas is incredibly difficult. Everyone is a pain point for almost every leader I talked to. And yet, as you said, you know, if you can create a bit of a center of gravity, a bit of a brand, right as something which actually people go, Oh, you know, that actually, is an opportunity where I get to do my stuff, in a good way, have fun with other good people. Because my skills, everything else, then it probably becomes a bit more differentiated than just another anonymous player in that space. Right. So I think that idea of building a critical mass is kind of what I'm hearing within that which actually creates a virtuous cycle, right? People actually go you know what, I know this is a great place to work. They've got good reach there because they're brown, they're probably getting good clients or interesting names or whatever it is, and so it can is a self perpetuating business cycle? 

Jason Wojahn
Yeah, you know, I agree with everything you just said I would, you know, I think that at the end of the day, we are a services business, we provide services for our clients Technology Services, we're very focused however, right, we don't provide broad reaching services, there's there's what we do and there's there's everything else. So we're, we're really focused on on helping a product called ServiceNow cloud platform, be rationalized and adopted, and, and using that cloud platform to help customers get more value out of there day in and day out. In it information technology, you know, that's always been a bit of a subordinate state in the company, right? I think that's, that's not something that necessarily, you know, most most companies THINK, THINK thought they were majoring in 10 years ago, or 15 years ago, or even 20 years ago. And now we're at this moment where every company is a digital company, in some way, shape, or form pandemic has, obviously, accelerated that even further, it's not, it's not diminished the need for this, it's only elevated the need for this. And then at the the end of all of it, you know, we all want to be around like minded individuals, we all want to be around people that are, you know, in our context, maybe fun, or reasonable, are reliable, you know, we want to have the ability to trust each other. And those are all things that I think our company has done quite well, in our first year. I like to tell our company, that third error, I like to say, hey, we're just off to a really strong start. And, you know, let's let's just get stay stay on the labor of doing going. And you know, why we've amassed a large group of people across, you know, a big segment of the globe, there's so much opportunity out there, you know, there's so many business out businesses out there, they're really struggling with how do I manage the way I work? And how do I work with my providers and my customers in a meaningful way? And, you know, it's a tremendously awesome place to be, is to be part of supporting customers, you know, address those issues, or improve the way they work or, or deliver better business results.

Richard Medcalf
Yeah, so. So Jason, what's, what's the biggest surprise as you launch this business, and became CEO and Founder and CEO, because, you know, you did five acquisitions, I believe in the first year, right? You know, there's a lot of things that happened, you need to get Dylan's recruiting, you have to create a culture, you know, all this stuff. What was surprising and what took you what blindsided you what was what was what you're not expecting, and all of that.

Jason Wojahn
I think, I think at the end of the day, we knew we were going to be successful. I've been working in the ServiceNow ecosystem. Now for the better part of 13 years, we built a small company that was a company called navigates it was acquired by a bigger company got to work for that one clone Cloud Sherpas, the Cloud Sherpas eventually acquired by Accenture. So I got to see, you know, what we did at a very small scale and a very emergent scale very early in the ecosystem, and then got to be a part of building something that was, you know, very super sized. And in a much more mature ecosystem, we knew we could be successful, we knew the market, you don't need a new type, or a new breed of partner out there. But more importantly, and it's in our name, third era, the reason the reason we named the company we did I registered that domain name a few years ago, was this notion that we there are these inflection points in, in technology where things just completely changed foundationally. And in the ServiceNow ecosystem, you know, I'd been a part of the emergence of the the ecosystem, the first era, than the second era, which was the expansion and the scaling of the ecosystem. And I kept coming back to we're leaving value on the table for our clients. And in every approach I've seen, both small and large there is there's there's value being left on the table. And, you know, as I looked at the maturity of technology, the maturity of service down this ecosystem, and so you know, that that is something we can go off and address we can, we can help customers create more value, we can help them achieve more value, we can ensure that they don't leave value on the table in the context of ServiceNow. But it was clear to me that we had to be very, very focused to do that, right, we had to have very, very focused intentions. And we needed to be very practical about what we are helping customers do. So you know, sort of obvious that we need to build this company because I really felt that at the end of the day, looking at our clients and looking at the opportunities for them. It just wasn't anybody really helping them get all the way there. And so our intention here is to help them get all the way.

Richard Medcalf
Right. Got it. So tell me about the surprises though. You said you're going to be successful. You had that vision for the third era of you know, after ServiceNow ecosystem and delivering value. So you kind of launched into the project. But what what what took you by surprise, Yeah.

Jason Wojahn
Well, I would say, it's been a pleasant surprise for me so far. And I'm not just spitting that to be positive, we've grown this company much faster than we had expected to, you know, nobody sat down a year ago or a year and a half ago, when we were starting to have conversations about, you know, what this might become in time and say, you know, what the first 10 months of the company, we're going to acquire five companies, we're going to hire more people that across the globe, and we acquired it in those five companies, and somehow that's all going to stitch together in a company that's fun to work for, that it's kind of punchy, in the way it approaches its brand and culture and purpose and those types of things, but is ultimately going to be delivering very positive CSAT very customer, very positive customer value, I would have, I would have probably seen that a piece of paper and and and kind of questioned whether or not that that was real, and whether or not that was practical.

Richard Medcalf
On the other hand, Jason, you you made it happen, right? So I get it. It sounds crazy when you say like that, but it happened. And but and you had to make it happen. So So what was the must be? What's the surprise? Was it the fact that opportunities came along, were presented to you to, you know, I mean, you ever had to do an acquire a company at some point, right to make it happen, or you had to go and recruit a whole bunch, you know, 300 people? So how did that happen? Like, where was you know, you started off? And you weren't planning to do that? What was it? Was it just people coming to you saying, Would you like to buy this company? You know, no, it was the How did that work? 

Jason Wojahn
You know, we we saw an opportunity for consolidation. In the segment of technology, we live in ServiceNow ecosystem, you have the largest partners, which are more GSIs. And they tend to be, they tend to be companies that are focused on many different, you know, technologies, many different software's, those types of things. And then you had the very regionalised, very, you know, subscale partners that are really excellent at what they do, but they don't tend to be as holistic or comprehensive, they don't have quite the investment of the of the large tier partners. And so what we recognized is that, you know, on the ServiceNow ecosystem had great support on either ends of this spectrum, the largest of the large and the more regionalized, or smallest and small, but what they didn't have is somebody that was global in reach, that could leverage the modalities of work that a globally based company could, that that had to focus on, just service down, making sure that customers got the most out of it. So we weren't blending our focus with other products or, or issues, we could be very pure with our customers to say, you know, we look at the world of the service now context, and we help you automate, we help you workflow, you know, kind of out from there. And so it was, it was clear, there's nothing in the middle of that night. And so it was very easy for us to say, Okay, well, we're gonna go be the middle that we, of course, recruited some funding and and you know, why you mentioned I was the founder, I look at it, there was there was there was really, kind of three main founders of the company, we came together, we collected, we saw the opportunity, we had had experience over time, all three of us and in creating value in the ServiceNow ecosystem. And we said, Okay, well, we can do this, again, we can do this in a way that's foundationally different, we see this inflection point in the ecosystem in the market, we see all these these drivers of technology and these growth patterns, we can bring that all together to something that's much more contextual. For clients, it's much more focused for clients, establishment and their value. So you know, what, why, and that has resonated in the ecosystem that has resonated with people that are in our space, and they understand, you know, the value levers for clients, and how to help them achieve more value and, and so to some degree, you can't stop it, right? You can't stop individuals that are saying, you know, I want to help and be a great consultant. And I want to drive technology and technology to enable that digital transformation. And if you can provide a fertile ground where people can apply their skills and talents to help contribute to that, that I think that is something that can kind of galvanize and help you accelerate and collect, collect, you know, not only skills and resources and talent, but you know, customers as well along the way. And so all of those things kind of come together in this it's wonderful recipe or wonderful stew. And, you know, it was the right time, we had the right people. We had the we took the time thoughtfully to put together the right resources, we needed to achieve this. And, you know, kind of when we got to the starting when I became something where we found we were able to run very fast as results of all those things.

Richard Medcalf
Yeah, that's it's really, it's really fascinating will be your top tips for new CEOs, right, if somebody else, you know, setting up their company, yeah. How would you why would you advise them what should they seize what opportunities or what traps should they avoid? Would you say to them? 

Jason Wojahn
Yeah, I think, you know, it's, it's one of those things where you need to be confident about your space you need to have you need to have done reps for lack of a better way to say it. So you have context you have experience, then when you see that moment, when you see that inflection, or you have that idea, you know, take those extra steps. For me, it's a lot less about strategy. We're in a great segment in a very fast growing ecosystem, in an area of technology that is that is emergent. So what other strategy do you need? I think that's, that's, that's perfect. Hold on to that stay with that. Focus on execution, focus on delivery, focus on focus on your first principles. And, you know, we're not growing this company, necessarily, to just you know, as a vanity metric, right? You know, this is this is something that we're really principled about, and really grounded in, you know, our best efforts, our best work, if it doesn't achieve value for clients, his work was not worth doing. And so we really try to kind of stay as pure and focused on that as we can. And again, I think that's something that's resonated with individuals come here and do your best work, you know, let's get the encumbrances out of the way so that you can and help customers achieve their best value in the way that they work every day. And, you know, again, the rest of it is execution. It's getting right out of the strategy layer and just waking up every day, and helping to move that forward each and every day.

Richard Medcalf
Yeah, I love it. Thank you that really 30 grade points, right, when you have a curve to ride, write it, and then just focus on the making sure, it's tight, right, that is working as a machine, a well oiled machine. It's a there's a time you can overthink the strategy when you find a curve.

Jason Wojahn
That's, that's open and natural, in my opinion, you know, in my opinion, and I don't want to get too preachy here. But that's what every one gets wrong. You know, everyone sits down and talks about strategy, and Myers', their strategy, and let's talk about the strategy and look at how great the strategy works. And, you know, look at my strategy, and it's, I don't, I don't really subscribe to that. I mean, for me, it's I, you know, sometimes, and most often people would define a chief executive officer, CEO as being, you know, visionary and being and being that person, that's, that's got the strategy, but not necessarily as engaged in the mobilization of it in the delivery of it. My view is, it's all about mobile mobilization and delivery. You know, once you pick where you're going to apply your, your skills, your talents as an individual or as a business leader, or those types of things, then get out of your own way and just get to work. That's, that's, that's the biggest thing that I see is that, you know, it's, it's customers and even employees, they want someone that's going to be very consistent, consistent, and want to work with companies that are very consistent, they, you know, there's no need to bring complexities, you know, you actually have to fight to keep that as simple as pure as possible. And again, I think we've done that extraordinarily well. Our team at Third Era is principled in that way, and they wake up every day, and they apply themselves, you know, you know, to that to those principles and purposes.

Richard Medcalf
So let's move on Jason, and hit you with some of my quickfire questions. I think these are interesting just to kind of see what what, what concepts or background underpins your leadership. So what's the favorite quote, that perhaps guides your leadership?

Jason Wojahn
Boy, anybody that that has spent any time with me, it's gonna hear me say this. And I think they know what my favorite quote is. The single biggest problem with communication is the illusion that has taken place. I've probably not gotten that exactly right. But you get the point. It's George Bernard Shaw, who was a Irish playwright, but I really think that that's a Madison interesting thing if you think about the way our brains are wired, right, the you can sensory or unconsciously, you can perceive a mess, 11 million things any given second, your brain, however, is wired, such as it filters, so much of that out to, you know, the 40 things they think is the most important at that given second. And, you know, if you if you realize that everyone is dealing with the filter, you know, we might be might be dealing with the filter of where you're sitting or, or whom you're speaking to, or what have you, or the bad day you started or the great day you started, whatever it is, you know, making sure that you deliver messages as simply and as straightforward as possible becomes so important, because everybody walks away from a conversation with a slightly different aperture or a slightly different perspective of what occurred and is same with this podcast as people listen to this some, some, everyone's gonna walk away with a different perspective of what we said and what we accomplished, or what we discussed. And and you know that the art of communication is making sure you stay very contextual, that you stay aware of the fact that not only do individuals receive things in different ways, they process things in different ways. They will take different things out of that as results. You're an awful long way to being able to be an effective communicator, if you can understand that.

Richard Medcalf
Perfect, what's the favorite app on your phone? 

Jason Wojahn
Something that, you know, that perhaps is a bit unusual, but you, you know, I've been geeking out over HRV data lately, so, so I really into this app, I'm gonna have to look at it on my phone to make sure I get the name right. But I training today, which pairs with the Apple Watch, and it allows you to look at your heart rate variability data. And so I like, I like to be fit, I like to work out, I think it's a good stress relief. But it also is, is just good for your body to feel good. And, and, you know, obviously, working out gives you that great feeling. So I've been really geeking out over Heart Rate Variability lately. And that app, it's been interesting to watch over time as results.

Richard Medcalf
Okay, perfect. What about book? What's a book that's really influenced you?

Jason Wojahn
Oh, gosh, it's been a lot. You know, I would say that, most recently, however, I just finished Frank sweetmeats book, amp it up. He may not be somebody that a lot of people have heard of. But he's actually he's actually quite a quite an excellent CEO. He was the CEO at Data Domain. When that company through IPO, and eventually an acquisition, he was CEO at ServiceNow, I got the chance to work with him and really kind of see his his the way he addressed things. He's now the CEO of snowflake, and just published his second book. And I think his book is a really excellent read, I think anybody who's doing anything in leadership, or management and technology should read his book, you'll see him very focused on just getting things done. And, and, and there's an awful lot of value in the book he's put together. 

Richard Medcalf
So the book is called amp it up and put up, check it out. Thank you, what advice would you give your 20 year old self, Jason.

Jason Wojahn
Um, you know, 25 years in technology is going to go a lot faster than you thought it was. I would have definitely, I would have definitely taken bigger risks earlier, I think I was very conservative in kind of the first third of my career. And I and I didn't really understand that, you know, I could turn the way I was thinking I could turn the things that I was seeing into into a company and a business, however, is good to get you get and get a stage in your career where where you have the ability to learn, I probably stayed at IBM a little longer than I should have, I should have had been more ambitious at that. At that stage. It took me a little bit to kind of learn or see that opportunity. So my 20 year old self, I would tell him to hurry up, get ambitious, and get out there and get it done. 

Richard Medcalf
So yeah, no, thank you. Thanks for being honest about that. I must admit, I think I was pretty it's just a little bit too long as well. It's easy to get comfortable sometimes. Yeah. And now I'm in my new lease of life, honestly, loving it, you know, it's the things I get to do now, you know, amazing. And, yeah, it's easy to get onto a plateau without without realizing it. 

Jason Wojahn
Sometimes. I think, I know that our discussion early on. Before we were live here, you mentioned you work at Cisco, and you're very successful. I worked at IBM, I was very successful in most contexts. And so you can easily kind of narrow your university Sam being successful here, you know, why rock the boat? Why? Why go, you know, address this other segment, or go scratch that itch or go, you know, you take a risk in this space. And there's there's no point in doing it and being successful here. And that's, that's limiting, you know, you might be very successful there. But that's, that's ultimately not going to allow you to achieve your best. So so feel free to air it out. Feel free to be ambitious. I mean, for both of us, you could probably make a strong case to say had we had we been more ambitious or more aware of kind of what success really looked like earlier, you would have achieved it even sooner. So you know, I think while I wouldn't say take big, you know, uncalculated risks, I would say take big calculated risks and and then trust yourself in the process. Yeah, absolutely.

Richard Medcalf
So Jason, some of our many of our best guests on the show come from referrals. I'm always interested to know is there somebody you know, who's an impactful CEO who inspires you? That might be a great guest in the future? 

Jason Wojahn
Oh, gosh, I would say if you could get Frank's lukeman Not to make this too much about Frank sleeper, but if you're you get him you'd really have something he's, in my opinion, he is somebody that is he is so practical that I think that and not very showy man. He would probably hate that. I said that, but he doesn't necessarily get the attention he deserves but you look at those individuals that over time have been so consistent, and overtime have been so successful. And and you look at him and I would I would say he's one of the top CEOs in technology. period. So he's he's somebody that I would say you should try to get on your show. And if you can, kind of same kind of thing. He's a, he's a really excellent operator, and excellent tactician and a very thoughtful, thoughtful person.

Richard Medcalf
Perfect. Wow, looking at Thank you. Finally, no matter how much we've achieved, there's always the next level to get to. So what's next level for third era? 

Jason Wojahn
You know, where do you want to go from here as a business, we're gonna continue to grow globally. You know, I think for us, it's about you only helping customers get more reach within technology, and, and really design a better way of working in their enterprises. You know, so for us, it's just doing more of that. It's, it's, it's, it's expanding, you know, that and making sure that we're staying kind of focused on those first principles. As I look at the emergence of technology, I think that we're going to find in a three to five year period, more and more, enterprises are going to rely on common platforms and technology to help them, you know, really modernize the way their businesses run and operate. So for us, it's about really pushing the boundaries of helping customers achieve that, it's understanding where their common pain points are, and, and you know, where they're where their common opportunities are, and helping to provide, you know, a framework or a company B and help customers achieve that, you know, eventually, you know, I could see, you know, in this kind of this the ServiceNow case, this platform narrative, being a bit of a control tower, or take a reference you'd used earlier as a lighthouse, you know, to to help be a bit of a beacon in the way companies should operate. So for us, we're going to continue to be doing that we're going to continue to scale in that space. I believe that the cloud platforms and in particular ServiceNow is is going to be something that's really future ready. And it's something that's always evolving. And so as a result of that, we will just continue evolving our company in that context.

Richard Medcalf
And here's the question, here's the stretch question. Is the question via self reflection here, what are you going to need to do differently, Jason yourself to multiply your own impact? Normally, we find a little formula that works for us. And that creates what we create, and it's working well. But often, to get to that next level, we need to shift some things up, what's going to be your personal stretch as you continue to build the business?

Jason Wojahn
Yeah, so it's something I remind myself a lot of today is that is the roots, let's take our company in the first 12 months, we just just celebrated our one year anniversary and the first 12 months, we brought five companies together, we brought common systems, common processes, kind of tools, common software, we build an entire new business platform, we built an entirely new brand, we've launched that brand, we brought people together and aligned and galvanized on that mission and got into the real labor of helping our customers and you could say, well, that worked and we should just keep doing more of that but the reality is, is we have to look at what we've built with a critical eye and say, Okay, where do we need to creatively distract something we just constructed that we're quite proud of and, you know, for us, it's that constant, constant state of reinvention. That's the thing that that I spend a lot of time thinking about, as we created this company very quickly, there are some things that we're going to need to, you know, maybe maybe address in a different way because we were we were building the company so quickly and so maybe there's some things we built that again, we're very proud of and you know, see as an accomplishment, that tomorrow we should say yep, that's that's not going to take us to our our fullest intention or our fullest capability, or deliver our clients fullest value. So it's this notion that we need to be in an ever evolving state, we need to be continually improving, which means that we can't be too proud of the company we've built to help, you know, restructure it or re engineer it, or or adjusted to be more valuable for clients and delivering values for them.

Richard Medcalf
Yeah, I love it. Creative destruction and reinvention. I think it's a great thing for some company that's so young steel to better think that way I think is fantastic. Jason, if people want to find out more about you, or about a third era, where should they go?

Jason Wojahn
Yeah, well, Thirdera was really easy. Thirdera.com, T-H-I-R-D-E-R-A, you'll find everything you need to know about about our company there. Of course, we've got a YouTube channel and Instagram and all those things as well. So you know, we like to have a little fun with some of those things but for me, myself, I'm LinkedIn as probably the best business way of contacting me and something I'm very active on but those would be the two best places to go for contact information.

Richard Medcalf
Perfect. Hey, Jason, it's been a pleasure. I've loved the story of how you built this business which was to customer value focused and so fast right in just a year building it out and globally and you know, I love as well the, this idea of seeing an opportunity in the market to bring consolidation, create this bit of a beacon and the way that that's worked for you, right and seeing people come, come in wanting to be part of something that's going to go some scale and got some substance behind it. So thank you for kind of sharing this really fascinating journey and I look forward to seeing how it evolves.

Jason Wojahn
Thank you, Richard. I appreciate it. It was a pleasure.

Richard Medcalf
Thanks. Take care now. Bye bye.