S13E10: Enjoying the power of the discomfort zone, with David Engel (CEO, Drake and Farrell)

David Engel
And things, you know, things are different to what you what you've seen before. And I've always been last 25 years or all my life, actually. I've been kind of subconsciously attracting difficult challenges, one challenge more difficult than the one before. And then I think, okay. Well, that's this. That's the biggest challenge. and, you know, now it's getting easier. And then life throws something at you. That's getting more that's more complicated and that needs a And that's how it continues, how it continues. So I came into Drake and fell and I thought, yeah, I got this.

Richard Medcalf
Welcome to the impact multiplier CEO podcast. I'm Richard Medcalfe, founder of Xquadrant. And my mission is to help the world's top CEOs and entrepreneurs shift from incremental to exponential progress and create a huge positive impact on our world. Now that requires you to reinvent yourself and transform your business. So if you're ready to play a bigger game than ever before, I invite you to join us and become an impact multiplier, CEO. In this conversation, I speak with David Engle. David is simply I have a lot of time for. He's he's been a client a one to one client. He's been a part of my CEO community Rivendell. I wanna love about David. He's a strategist. He's organized. He's highly accomplished in both the corporate space and also as an entrepreneur. But he also brings this sense of mission and sense of purpose. And he's prepared to do the hard work on himself in order to multiply his impact. Exactly, my kind of person. In this conversation, we look at his story. How did he get clear on the inspiring mission that he was on, but also that his company was on? How did he transform the company from being actually run by the founder as more of a lifestyle business to something where he was investing leading with purpose and really striving to make a difference. We also look at the impact of of a community around him of trusted CEO peers people pushing him out of his comfort zone. How he organizes is his life to focus on the big things and the little things, but actually get rid of the noise in the middle. which is really fascinating. And many other things as well. So what I love about David, as I said, is he's a strategist but he's also got it hard. He's really on purpose. And so I hope you enjoyed this conversation with David Engle of Drake and Farrell. Hello, David.

Richard Medcalf
Hi. I'm I'm well. Hey. I'm really looking forward to talking, David. You know, you and I, we've known each other for a couple of years now. You've been in my in my master, be in my CEO community, Rivendell. We've worked together 1 to 1. We've worked with any of your team. in different ways. So I kinda know a bit about your journey, but I think it's gonna be a nice time over the next few minutes really just to kind of go to some different places that we've not been before. together and explore. Let's let's jump into into this story of impact because one thing I know about you is as CEO of Drake and Farrell, You're on a mission to rid the world entirely of the electronic waste mountain that accumulates over 60 megatons every year in the world. And I'm always curious about purpose. So did that purpose just to wake up one morning? And now, you know, you thought that waste mountain is bad? Or did you just kinda, like, buy into this company or whatever and then decide, actually, this is quite a good purpose after all? So kinda how how is your own personal purpose? evolved, you know, as you took the rail well, took the reins of this of this company.

David Engel
Others say that you know, sometimes once purpose presents itself through the circumstances of your life, which, you know, to an extent, is very philosophical. But it was. There was there's a little bit of truth in that in my journey. I've been working at Drake And Farrell now for three and a half years. And, you know, I knew this company for years years years, and I knew and I still know the founder and, you know, we're good friends and everything. So And, you know, I came into this company that we're doing what we do today plus, you know, many more things. And we kind of you know, we hit a a a a a ceiling, so to say. A couple of clients was commercially successful. But we we we didn't quite know, okay. Well, what what's next? What's 2.0? What's 3.0? So, you know, I came in and, you know, thoughts about, okay, well, what is it actually? What is it actually that we stand for? Because when the founder founded the company in in in 2006, he said, okay. Well, he wants to evolve from being a logistics service provider, let's say, to a partner. And that was quite a nice purpose at the time. I knew kind of we were trying to find that, you know, evolution from there to the next phase. And since now we actually actively read the world's b waste in the telecommunications and the e mobility and the health and med tech space. You know, we're kind of Kind of yeah. I came up with it waking up some morning, but, you know, there's probably many mornings that I woke up and and kind of refined it, refined it, refined it, and maybe a first version of the purpose would have been yeah, we wanna get rid of the e waste, something like that. And I remember that, you know, sort of roughly, I don't know, and that one and a half, two years ago, roughly or one and a half years ago. you and I actually were talking. And, you know, and I kind of was bouncing about these things and what I was thinking about and how I give the company purpose, which I believe is very important for everybody involved here. And then you told me Yeah. Give me your pitch, and I gave you my pitch about yeah. And 60 megatons and this and this and that. And you just said, Yeah. Sounds very boring. So I remember that. And I thought, yeah. It actually sounds truly pretty, pretty boring. And so and I kind of, you know, I said, okay. I wanted to have more super superlatives in there and and more kind of more more authenticity. And then, you know, sort of kept digging and say, okay. What do we actually do? I mean, so last 10 years, we've been saving 2 and a half megatons from being thrown away. We you know, which is something we're, like, the, you know, a 120 people company here in the Netherlands. So, you know, that's that's quite something. That's quite an impact. So in, you know, from there, it evolved into actually revolution revolutionize the way that society actually deals with electronic waste. So which goes beyond what we do, but it's also about making people in our near and far environment, aware that this is bad that we have 60 megatons or actually 63 megatons last year. That's end of the story about the purpose. You know? So if you played a role in that, you know, kind of challenging me to say, hey, you know, that's, you know so I sharpen it. You know? Yeah. I remember actually that now because there are a couple of areas where one of which was getting really specific because sometimes we have these vague statements for the business which don't mobilize people.

Richard Medcalf
So I know we talked about this idea of really getting specific on, like, what would be something that's measurable that people in the company could get behind? You know when you achieve it. And then actually, conversely, the other one is what's the mission that is perhaps more general, but way bigger than what you could deliver as a business that, you know, like, a cause that you're part of and something that you wanna activate beyond the that you can be involved with. I think that's the other part, right, of being part of the global movement. Yeah.

David Engel
Yeah. Exactly, and that's And that and that's the thing, and that's a good thing about, you know, sort of being challenged, you know, by somebody to to kind of, hey. You know? So you need to sharpen your pencils on that, you know. So because it sounds really boring. And it kind of the second probably big event was nominated for a big Price here in the Netherlands that we didn't win, you know, sort of which would have been nice because, you know, the queen would have, you know, come and give you the price you know, we didn't win. But, anyways, so I gave a presentation about what we do. So I had all these mock ups of electronics and everything, and, you know, I showed this and and to the audience and everything. So when I explained this, and my my CFO, I mean, she she was she sat in the audience And when I was finished, there was, like, this committee of of of people sitting there. I was, you know, so. And I was finished, and she was going clapping clapping and yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I work for this company. Great. Great. Great. I said, oh, okay. Yeah. So we were onto something. You onto something where which really excites people which kind of, you know, really gives them energy. So and and then that's what we, you know, trying to develop further. And yeah. And we'll also help them. And you mentioned the the mastermind community that that you that you're running, well, was part of last year Rivendell. And then suddenly, you come into a group, you know, that that half define certain things. You know, one has defined their purpose very well. you know, the other one also, and the next one is searching for something else. So and and and you kind of and that is kind of this this virtuous circle going around because you're telling each other all these things and everything. And, yeah, that that also, you know, was probably also one of the compelling events that kind of sharpened my pencil on on our purpose.

Richard Medcalf
Yeah. I mean, what I remember in in Rivendell was cover things. First of all, you said, you know what? We we're quite an eclectic group because we've got, you know, size businesses, different geographies. But actually, you see, actually, the core challenges we're going through as CEO is quite similar. Right? The numbers might be different. Right? Or the quantity of people But they're very similar things. And I think you're right. There was some great discussion around, like, do do we really know what we're trying to do in some so it was can we inspire ourselves I love to say, you know, you can't inspire others until you've inspired yourself. And so when I said to you that time, that was a bit boring. It's because you weren't sounding sold on your own mission.

David Engel
Exactly, and that's very often that's very often the case with with things, you know, also I know we have the purpose. We have or, you know, we do rifle strategies and that we implement and and execute. And kind of we dilute You know? And and when you dilute, you put water into the juice. You know, it's less juicy. Yeah. So that's that's very simple. And it's also you know, it's not authentic juice anymore. So it's watered down juice. And so and that's that's what happens because, you know, kind of go a little bit to the left and a little bit here and a little bit here and you move away further from your core and from your purpose. by all the things that you're doing and all the things you think you need to be doing, but you're not contributing to the purpose. And it's, by the way, the same thing when when you think about impact, when you think about, you know, if you wanna make a big impact, Okay. Well, you need to keep at it. You know, there's this this book from this guy, you know, he's saying, if you wanna change the world, you know, start making your bet. Yeah. We sound sound silly, but, you know, sort of, you know, these little routines that you need to do every day, and every week, and every month, and every year. And, you know, to an extent, it's repetitive because it keeps you on track. for the big goal, for the big purpose. Yeah. Absolutely. Well, speaking right to me actually, David, in this moment because...

Richard Medcalf
Yeah. I got it clear over the last couple of years, you know, on my purpose, which is I really wanna work. I really I do work. I am working. You know, with with the top leaders who are changing the world in different ways. And I but I need to keep my intense focus on that and expanding my impact within that field rather than getting distracted by you know, here's somebody who wants to get a promotion. Right? Or here's somebody who yeah. This thing might I mean, I can help on those things. I'm gonna have some programs for that, but the very high level, you know, it's like, how committed am I gonna be on my mission that I'm gonna do anything to make that happen, Why am I gonna, you know, take what I call the high achievers root out, which is, you know, if you're not achieving in one particular moment or one particular quarter, you kind of redefine the rules so that you can still hit some target that you see yourself. Right? Like, yeah. Well, I didn't I'm not delivering on my mission, but I made a big number. Or I, you know, I blew through my you know, my you know, whatever. I soaked for me, that that's really important is to stay firm and and resilient. So tell me about that. How do you do that? because I'm sure you've had well, I know you've had ups and downs on that journey, good quarters, bad quarters, surprises, things that might pull you off call.

David Engel
Yeah. That's a very good question because, you know, obviously, I mean, you expect to come into a into a new company. And and things know, things are different to what you what you've seen before. And I've always been the last 25 years or all my life actually, I've been kind of subconsciously attracting difficult challenges. One challenge more difficult than the one before. And then I think, okay. Well, that's this. That's the biggest challenge. And, you know, now it's getting easier. And then life throws something at you that's getting more that's more complicated and the need to and that's how it continues, how it continues. So I came into Drake and Farrell and I thought, yeah. I got this. I got this. I've got I'm 25 years logistics. No problem. Yeah. So and then you you look at the dynamics. And, yeah, it is it's it's a smaller company. However, you've got the same issues, the same wins the same problems, the same everything than the big companies. And so it came to me as a little bit of a revelation to say, oh, what the hell? Why do we not? You know? So how does that, you know? And why why do we not and why can it can it not work like this from there into a more Sereen mode mode where I'm saying, well, hang on. So I'll need to step back. So analyze more dick deeper into the things and work more qualitative, let's say. You know? So where is the 25 or 20 years earlier? I've always been working also a lot, you know, speed is very important and, you know, put a lot of hours in and then these kind of things. But that kind of during journey here, Drake and Farrell, I would come to realize that, you know, I need to work more on the essence, more qualitative. So if you spend 5 hours on something and then you solve it, and that makes a big impact. And then you reflect on it and you said, oh, okay. That's that's, you know, that's how it all works. So then it dawns on you that you need to seek these high impact activities where you can be contributing towards. Yeah. And that doesn't mean that, you know, sort of I don't make money on that. Of course, I do. Yeah. So but And that's the but that's the basis. But, you know, but you can't make the big impact in the world without having had breakfast and got dressed and, you know, these these routine things that you need to do. So what I do is I'll do those routine things, you know, including sports routine things like that. You know, it's very early in the morning. But I also, you know, focus on those big things, you know, I'm trying to get that balance in between. And the middle That is the danger. That is where the distraction lingers in the dark. You know?

Richard Medcalf
Yeah. It's a great point. Right? Because you have the high the high end activity is the really big one. But then you have also as you said, the really important thing. Like, you gotta maintain energy, your creativity, the foundations for those. And it's the stuff in the middle that's not really doing anything so important that we gotta be careful of. So that's a beautiful way of putting it. I think what you're saying is it's actually about quality. You know? It's like, we need to do quality and not quantity. You know? It's so you say, working on the essence, Right? It's those key things. But you people are, like, getting the purpose right. You know, the the leverage that you get on that when a whole organization crystallizes their purpose is huge. Right? Much better than doing a whole bunch of tactical things in the same period of time. Yeah. Exactly.

David Engel
Exactly, and the the interesting thing about that is you need to find that essence yourself because, you know, nobody tells you that. And certainly, in the CEO position, and, you know, I'm sure that that, you know, my fellow, you know, senior leaders out there will will agree. you know, there is nobody telling you. There's no shareholder telling you the essence. And what you need to do, there is no other stakeholder that tells you, okay. Well, this and this and that. They or what they tell you is expectation. I want you to make a quarter. I want you to make the months or, you know, do this or that strategy or whatever. That's an expectation. but I don't tell you the essence. And that is something you need to find within yourself and then apply to the business. And that's kind of your your own masks if you want. Yeah. Yeah. Your your own, you know, thing put into the organization.

Richard Medcalf
So so tell me a bit about the journey for the JV you've been on with me. Like, so Rivendell, you know, you join that community. Remember, it was interesting because I know somebody had recommended to you that you shake it out. We had a call. And you pretty much, like, straight in. You're like, fine. Let's do it. So you kinda took a bit of bit of a punch. Right? You didn't know me that that well at that point. but you jumped in. So I'm kinda curious as to was what you thought you were gonna get, the same as what you got, all the different and and in what way, and, you know, how did that work out?

David Engel
Yeah. It's it's kind of yeah. We had that call. That's right. And so you're telling me, okay. We've got these, you know, senior leaders and and this and that. And, you know, to be honest at that point, Dewey probably think, okay. Well, so you have those senior leaders. I'm in a position where I could use some, you know, kind of more or less informal advice that you can get out of a group like that to kind of solve a couple of, you know, simple business problems. You know? because there are certain things, you know, that that you need to talk some to somebody about, and that concerns very specific decision making, you know, should I go should I stay? And where you are alone, you know, where where nobody helps you. So and and that was one of those things where I said, oh, those people, they are very much the same position. So I could probably, you know, kind of get that out there. So probably a very selfish view, but, you know, hey. And then I discovered, you know, so when I when I joined the group, And I remember, we had this kickoff session, and I was sitting in hotels at work. I remember where. And I forgot my preparation folder. So I kind of made things out up as we go. And I thought, oh, man. I I think, you know, I'm an impostor. I'm not right for this group. You know, based on, you know, what I what what my my delivery at the kickoff, you know, sort of I said, oh, okay. And so so that were kind of the first to kind of experiences. And It was very interesting because it evolved throughout the following months that, you know, all the other CEOs, they had that same feeling one way or another. You know? So, yeah, I don't know. Am I right for this and am I right for this position and and can actually do that So after this kind of, you know, impostor syndrome as well, you know, which is very human, you know. A lot. it doesn't mean, you know, if you you're you're a leader somewhere. It doesn't mean you stop being human. Yeah.

Richard Medcalf
So we all have that. But, you know, for me, it's helped throughout the course of Rivendell last year, so I can't, you know, realize that in myself and conquer it thus better. Yeah. So Yeah. It's really interesting. Right? I was actually laughing about as as I was thinking of the u the first kind of the intake of our most recent cohort in Rivendell Have you were doing their introductions? Did you know we do I'd like to do a little bit fish deeper out their comfort zone. You're deep fast. And we're gonna be instructions there. Yeah. Had some of the people there. I mean, they're all, like, extremely competent. I'm looking at one of, you know, one of the people, you know, you you know. Right? He runs a multiple $1,000,000,000 business. And, like, his eyes are popping out his hair because he met these other people, you know, because he was like, oh my word. I can't believe I'm in the room with this person. Right? And this person. And, of course, they then feel exactly the same thing when when he introduces himself. Right? And for me, that's like the perfect thing, right, which is Because a lot lot of CEOs, they kind of often feel they're a bit the smartest person in the room whenever they go into a room. You know, all the most experienced or the most senior or whatever, And so as far as I did wanna create in Rivendell something where the caliber people were so high, that everybody was like, wow.

David Engel
You know? I can really learn from the I'm not the smartest person in the room. Yeah. Exactly.

Richard Medcalf
So I can impostor syndrome is the feature. Right?

David Engel
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think Yeah. You get you you get to this. And and, you know, it's I think it's also an expectation because, you know, people expect from you that, you know, you know, everything about sales, everything about finance, everything about operations, what everything about the business and and, you know, your customers and everything. So that's kind of the expectation. And I think a lot of leaders, a lot of CEOs, directors, they they kind of take on that challenge and, you know, so I wanna be an expert in everything. But I think, you know, I'm I'm not an expert in IT, for instance. I know a little bit about IT, a very high level, but I'm not the expert. And and you need to kind of realize that you are not and that you need help, yeah, that you need somebody. And and then it's about, you know, you trust somebody to do that, you know. And that can be the, you know, the chief commercial officer can be the CFO, can be the CIO, You know? And and you need those people that you can trust, that do that function, and they are experts at their function. And what you then do is you help them and you coach them and you enable them and you facilitate and, you know, them to do their very best. And because you do that all the time, you're kind of alone. Yeah. So and you come to that group, a Rivendell? And suddenly, you know, people do that for you, and and you think like, oh, great, you know, for James. Yeah. It's nice. Yeah. And here is one more thing, that I also took from the group back into my company that, you know, I'm allowing more often than not, you know, people from my leadership team or from from from from the entire team to kind of help me on a certain thing, you know, and and kind of encourage them to challenge me more, criticize me more, and, you know, do these kind of things because that makes the company stronger, you know, sort of that, you know, the the that process.

Richard Medcalf
Yeah. Not really have to do it all. Yeah. And and make all those decisions. Yeah. Yeah. That's great. So what I'm hearing is You came in thinking I'm gonna just get a few kinda tactical tips from these other people. So but then I had to build some build some deeper stuff around confidence and not being, you know, being an impostor, not being an impostor, and something there around kinda just that support network as well. That's where it is. Yeah. Exactly.

David Engel
Exactly. Yeah. And and that comes from not only the experience from the other people, but it just comes through also little things like, hey, I've had this challenge before. And that's not only helping you solve that challenge better, but it also gives it a feeling, hey. You know, it's it's not a big deal. You know, it's not a big deal. You can actually work this. You can actually do this. Yeah? And and and it's actually okay. Yeah. So And that and that's that's the transformative part of it. You know?

Richard Medcalf
So also through those little things. I hope you're enjoying this conversation. This is just a quick interlude to introduce you to 2 transformative programs that we run. The first is Rivendell. My exclusive group of top CEOs who are committed to transforming themselves, their businesses, and the world. It's an incredible peer group and a deep coaching experience that will push you to new heights no matter how successful you've already been. The second is Impact Accelerator, a coaching program for executives who are ready to make a big leap forward in their own leadership. It's regularly described as life changing, and no other program provides such personal, strategic clarity, a measurable shift in stakeholder perceptions and a world class leadership development environment. Find out about both of these programs. atxquadrant.com/services. Now back to the conversation.

Richard Medcalf
Yeah. Yeah. Beautiful. So let's come in person move on in the journey because I know that then, you know, we we decided to start working together 1 to 1. And so tell me about the about what the could go back to multiplying our impact, right, which is the name of this podcast. So in what way are you trying to multiply your impact? You know, a year, you know, extra year down the road, apps when you first joined Rivendell. And what you know, if you're like, why did you say, well, hey. Let me go deeper with Richard. You know, what was that what was the the motivation for that?

David Engel
Now for me, the impact in the multiplying impact, you know, it's a very it's very clear to me because and it's a derived from my purpose because, you know, I'm doing something good for society. Yeah. So and and you know, that's that's what we deeply believe. And the more impactful we can do this, the better it is. So it's a very simple equation. Yeah? And So I've been after Rivendell, I've been kind of saying to myself, alright. Okay. So I wanna, you know, really go deep on that and sort of deep on on how Do I put myself into a position to even increase impact more? Because it's obviously something you achieve Big impact today doesn't mean, you know, same thing happens tomorrow. You need to keep at it. And you need to keep being challenged, and you need to keep being pushed and you need to be, you know, coached, advised, and, you know, all these things, you know. And that led me to to kind of feel a worker, and we were working 1 on 1 because that will help me to increase the impact ever more. Yeah. So and if we have 10 x tomorrow, okay, that's fine. So then I want a 100 x the day after or just to put it in very simple terms. So it's a continuous journey and, you know, but but you know what I mean. Yes. Yeah.

Richard Medcalf
Yeah. Yeah. No. I do. I mean and in fact, I think one of the again, one of the pitfalls sometimes as high achieve I use what actually fall into not careful is is actually, again, defining our scope so that we'd always doing really, really well. Right? In other word, because we're delivering our numbers, we're hating our numbers. One thing I've been experimenting with is, like, well, you know, what is a room that I cannot get into at the moment? Right? Like, what is you know, what's a a conference or a you know, like, it might be a government body. Like, what did I where can I get access? Like, you know, there's perhaps it would be really impactful if I could, but it's at the limit of my own influence and ability. Right? And almost setting myself up new games where I suddenly feel that I'm a a beginner again and not you're within my zone where I feel I'm known or fasciated or I'm well in my comfort zone. And that can be quite a scary journey, right, because we have to do the inner work without it prepared to be uncomfortable as we go into those new areas.

David Engel
So I suppose, did you be thinking about the and and exactly that's exactly what you're saying because when you do that, You are a beginner again. So you leave you actually what you're doing is you're and I hate this, you know, kind of, you know, get out of your comfort zone. You know? I hate this kind of what I like is stay in your uncomfortable zone. And so then actually, when you when you begin something, you are in your uncomfortable zone because it's kind of new. You don't know. You don't know anybody. You go to that conference with a hundred people. You don't know anybody, so it's kind of feels with to talk to people and everything unless, you know, unless you're the sales team at Reagan Feld. I can talk to anybody about So that's the that's the thing. So you want yourself to begin stuff all the time. Because the stuff you're good at okay. Yeah. That's, you know, good. That's fine. But you need to get to back to 0 again. And that is the the the complicated. That's the that's the complicated thing to do, and that's the uncomfortable thing to do. Yeah. I love that. I think we should Craig made a t shirt saying...

Richard Medcalf
Yeah. Don't get out your comfort zone, stay in your discomfort zone, baby dangle, I think. I think that could be your quote. Probably so probably so. There's this other thing.

David Engel
There's this book from this marathon athletes, whatever. I was also a bow hunter, and he's saying, nobody cares. Work harder. Yeah. What he means was that is for yourself, you know. You get to 0 again. You know, go back to 0, you know, and start from there. you know. And, you know, I I like that notion and, you know, it's also a good example about, you know, what you just said. To have that. To have that all the time.

Richard Medcalf
So let's talk about that in the context of resilience because, oh, you know, what I know is is that, you know, you've I think you've put a a perseverance as a key value for you, I think. And you we talked earlier on about getting clear on our purpose and sharpening that up, getting them fired by it, But then how do we kind of you know, how have you found it staying on track on that as all these things come in, unless you wanna play a bigger game or you get hit by something else. See, how do you stay on track?

David Engel
Well, you know, I've got my, let's say, physical routine. So, you know, go running every day or every morning, actually, 6 o'clock and including Sundays and all that kind of so. I always do that to kind of have that win over myself, you know, of the win over the the compliant, the lazy me. Yeah. Sort of that one stay in bed and everything. So, you know, I just do that and have that role until I'm comfort. And, yeah, I I'm there. I've won the day. Yeah. So and I've achieved that first little thing. And that can be very different for anybody, but that's what's working for me. Sort of, you know, fight myself to win the day or the morning or whatever. And that kind of over time makes you resilient. But what also makes you resilient is, you know, we think about resilience about, you know, sort of these warrior you know, that could take anything. And so but actually, if the shit hits the fan, you you want to panic. Yeah? So you want to kind of and you wanna shout and you wanna swear and you wanna do this and everything. That's what you want to do. But I think in that moment, When the shit hit the fan, it's actually not the right thing to do. So what you need to do is you need to stay perfectly calm and look for towards, you know, or cloths or whatever. So so that's that's what you need to do. And and that requires constant, you know, reminding yourself, oh, oh, hang on. Hang on. Hang on. Not, you know, don't burst out, you know, all the time. So and and and but, you know, stay calm and you know, look at how we can address the situation, change your point of view. I don't know. Have another analysis done on your monthly numbers or whatever Yeah. And and and then these little things, and they help me to grow more and more resilient again you know, myself, you know, wanting to kind of, you know, why is it not working? You know, or we should work like that at this way. So And that that helps me, you know, so in conjunction with, you know, really a physical something that will help me win the day. for other people is making their bet for me, it's kind of going out and and and and and go running. Yeah.

Richard Medcalf
So many entrepreneurs and CEOs live in a permanent state of frustration. Right? Because of their goals and where they are and the gap between with the arp. and we can be our biggest enemies on that. We feel it's necessary to push forward. But, actually, it just puts bad energy state throughout where we're not actually being the leader we could be. And I've definitely what the other really admired in you, actually, David, is that you wanted to do that work. Right? I mean, you're a strategist. You know? We can talk on the level of strategy and you know, and and structure, and and we do do that. But what I also enjoy, the fact you were really like, no. No. Let's go as deep as we can. Like, let's really work on you know, the foundational level, the things which get in your way, sabotage your happiness in the moment or cow your judgment or whatever, you know, or perceptions you might have. And not every leader does that work. Right? A lot of me just get to that kind of good enough. I know how to kinda do this and operate within there you know, their zone where they feel very comfortable and they can make things happen. And what I love about you is for me, it's that real impact multiplier mindset is Yeah. Well, if I'm gonna go beyond what I'm currently doing, I need to do that deep work and it made this investment. Then you need to it starts with yourself.

David Engel
Exactly. It starts with yourself. And, you know, nobody follows you and and oh, no. No. Not follows. That's that's the wrong term. Nobody believes that you know, if you're not doing the artwork yourself. I mean, sort of who who would believe that? You know? Sort of you're saying, you know, you're sitting on the couch and and and shouting your orders from there. at scale and make impact. You know? So who believes that? You know, you need be you need to be authentic in order to be authentic. You need to show, okay, I can't do the IT work. Yeah. So but, you know, I can do other work. You know, I can be a role model there so that then, you know, propels it over to a different discipline. The interesting thing is that I've got this, you know, former boss many many years ago, and, yeah, I don't know, maybe a decade or so ago or a bit longer. we were on a driving to management retreat, and and I was sitting next to him in the plane. And he's a very pragmatic person as he runs that $1,000,000,000 company, a private company. So and and he told me, do you know You know what you need to get to the top? It's actually only 2 things. An unbreakable will and, you know, limitless endurance. That's all you need. And then you think about what what what what's what the freaking hell. It's like, well, what is he talking about? You know? But then he knows it only a couple of years ago, you know, it started to dawn on me. You know, what you meant? Yeah. Of course, you will. You need to Not as in, okay, well, you need to always get your will, but you need to know what you want. Yeah. And you need to work on that. And the other thing is, the endurance yeah. I mean, life throws shit at you all the time. So so you need to kind of take that. You know, so you need to you need to be able to take that without, you know, whining, you know, sort of and, you know, just because then you get into that mode where you tend to assign accountability to other people. They say, oh, it's it's his fault, and he hasn't delivered that. And, you know, you disclaim disclaim yourself from the responsibility. But ultimately and that's the thing, you know, CEO of a company is ultimately responsible. And you can't escape this. You can't there there is no way you can accept it, so you need to face it. Yeah.

Richard Medcalf
And that's when I teach people about ownership I said that, you know, when you have a situation, the first thing you have to do rather than denying and blaming, you have to own it. Like, what could I have done? But then the very next step is to forgive yourself. Because if you beat yourself up, every time you take ownership, you live a miserable life, and you don't you won't wanna take ownership. You wanna find every reason that it's not your fault. So So forgiveness is the pre requisite for their learning and then doing different next time. Yeah. That's a great concept, by the way. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly that. Yeah. And and I think that we're going back a few minutes. You were talking about being authentic in that context of growing as a leader. I think some people, again, feel that to be authentic, they just have to stay as they are. Like, This is just who I am, and therefore I'm being authentic. Where, actually, I think the question is more like, I think, growth mindset. Right? Like, who do, you know, who do I want to be? I or do I wanna bring it out to myself to be the leader that I need to be and then be that authentic leader because if you look at about 10 years, you're a very different person. So was I, looking back even 5 years, you know, with different people. And I think there are 2 alarm bells that I hear. when when try and speak to me. One of which is the truth of the situation is because they just know they're gonna tell me a story about what they think the situation's like, but it's not only the truth. It's just that The second one is I'm just the kind of person who, dot, dot, dot. And that second one is is is, again, also a story. It's like, that's how we've been successful in the past or what we found as work for us in the past. But actually, like, who knows who we will be next year. Right? Or what we wanna be different?

David Engel
Yeah. Right. There there is that Dutch song that I like from from this Dutch singer, the very old song. try to translate it here. It's it's the past doesn't secure you in the future, something like that, you know, so Pass might give you confidence, you know, about what you can and cannot do. Yeah. Your experience and everything, but, you know, it doesn't tide you over, you know, into the future. So So you need to and that's that's again, I mean, that's where you need to get yourself to to the beginning area. Now on a big monopoly board, you need to get to on that on that staff field to get. And and and and get more into that. Yeah. On comfort zone, really. Yeah.

Richard Medcalf
Yeah. That's that's beautiful. So, David, I guess, as we start to wrap up here, I guess, two questions to come to mind. Let's see the first one, which is How do you wanna multiply your impact and the impact of Drake and Farrell? Yeah. Bacon and Farrell is up is up to big things. I know, you know, you're successful in telecoms area. recycling that waste. You're now really moving in very successfully as well into the the EV charging market. and working with our pucky partners there. So what does multiplying the impact look like for for that business? And then for you leading it, what how do you need to shift? A great question.

David Engel
So for the business, there is a lot of, you know, operational and technical things because we're moving into something like a new market with the e mobility and also the med tech. So that means that you know, my key task is to get the team on board out to in that mindset shift to say, alright. We've been doing great things in the telco for all the clients that we have there, and, you know, they're very happy working with us. And and now we need to transpose that to different clients, which is kind of, you know, a challenging change, let's say, because works a little bit different. You know, it's the same model, it's the same activity that we do, but just a little bit different because the clients are different. The industry dynamic is different. And that is, I think, for me, the biggest let's say, enabler to to get the team and help them to to get into that mindset and away from from from, you know, oh, food. That's very tough. And it's a tall order and this and that. So getting into that. for me personally, you know, I couldn't be happier, you know, sort of a team or individual team members. are celebrating their success. So I've done something great. And, you know, so I go nuts. You know, it's like it's it's great. It's great. So I want more of sort of, I want them to be, you know, very, very, very, very successful. And when they're very successful, I wanna I wanna enable them to to do more and to because it's a good feeling. You know, it's a good feeling to be successful. So, yeah, And I suppose that is the biggest impact that will happen because what then follows is that that energy is put into what we do as Drake and Farrell and put out as the the service deep we deliver to our clients, but also to the environment, you know, in reducing continuously reducing e waste in the world.

Richard Medcalf
Yeah. Beautiful. Yeah. So I love the so I love the mission that you're on. I'd say the way that you're continually willing to look at yourself as as if you like a lever, you know, for for that change in the world, right, rather than always looking at what needs from other people or looking at how you it's your own game. I I love that in you. David, I'm always curious because, you know, I have my own way as I talk about, you know, the the CEO group or about how I work with people 1 to 1. But you hear somebody who's in the role and you've experienced both of those. So, you know, what would you know, if you were talking to another CEO about you know, about Rivendell or even about World 1 to 1 and just explaining, like, what Richard is like or what what the benefits like, What what would you be saying to them? I mean, who would you say is rightful or what they expect?

David Engel
Philosophically, I'll probably say to them, okay. There must be And you know that fellow CEO, there are a lot of dark moments, you know, sort of in in your work. And and, you know, something like, you know, the Rivendell community would help you to perform and to be at the very best at your personal best in those very dark moments because that's what, you know, CEOs usually need help with. You know? So how to be their best at the very dark at the darkest moments. Because all the rest is all fine, you know, sort of they're not CEOs because they've been not qualified. Yeah. So I think that is what I would say. And, you know, I would specifically say about the Rivendell group that it provides a sense of a very specific community that makes you know, the guy at the top feel, okay, there are other people experiencing the same challenges that I can also openly talk about and go deep fast Yeah? So that's what I would would say to them. And, yeah, obviously, we're talking about, you know, well defined impact, and I think working with you, you know, that goes deeper and faster and and more intense and more impactful. You know? Yeah. Well, thank you. Hey. Thanks, David.

Richard Medcalf
It's always hard to be to ask people these select questions, but it's it's helpful, right, to to get it in other people's language other than just my own.

David Engel
So yeah. I I mean, you've got you've got this you've got this I mean, so, obviously, you also have been having a very, very long decades decades long business career. So you're one of these coaches actually knows the business issues and topics and things like that. So, you know, which helps a lot.

Richard Medcalf
Yeah. Yeah. I always used I always used to joke to people that I said, I'm I'm this, like, non HR person that does these HR kind of things these days. Right? And Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. because, actually, you know yeah. I I do I do understand that, you know, obviously, that the business context be, which I think 3 is important. Yeah. I did strategy for years by realizing the most important strategy is the personal strategy. I actually like working on ourselves because that changes the results we get Right? And often, we don't we'll look at that. We just try and intellectually, you know, solve all the all the analytical components. Right. And thinking that that whole we have to do is be smart. Right? And it all will work out. And reality is that's only a part of the equation. And well, hey. That's a good place to leave it. David, it's been real pleasure. You know, I I've enjoyed, you know, in touch with you, you know, in all these different contexts. But today, I think what I've really enjoyed, yeah, is this perspective, I suppose, around the discomfort zone. Right? You know? And and about resilience. And about that point of actually getting to a place where we can enjoy all the chaos that's coming at us, but being so on a mission that actually, you know, we get to do this. Right? And and it and it's firm, and we don't have to take these things so heavily as when perhaps identity is tied up in it. Basically, that's how I would summarize. Oh, very well, very well summarized. Yeah. So many thanks, David, team pleasure to to speak again today and to an than the blast. Thank you very much. Seeing how Drake and Farrell keeps going from strength to strength. Great. Thank you.

Richard Medcalf
Well, that's a wrap. If you received value from this conversation, please do leave us a review on your favorite podcast platform. Would deeply appreciate it. And if you'd like to check out the show notes from this episode, head to expodrant.com/podcast. where you'll find all the details. Now finally, when you're in top leadership, who supports and challenges you at a deep level? to help you multiply your impact. Let's cover more about the different ways we can support you at xquadrant.com.