S13E14: How to navigate the downsides of a thrilling mission, with Craig Lund (CEO, Mightier)

An episode of The Impact Multiplier CEO Podcast

S13E14: How to navigate the downsides of a thrilling mission, with Craig Lund (CEO, Mightier)

We're continuing our season on "business as a force for good", Richard speaks with Craig Lund, CEO of Mightier. Mightier is a digital program that uses biometric feedback and game-based play that has been clinically proven to help kids ages 6 to 14 prepare for life's big emotions. To date, more than 2.5 million games have been played on the Mightier app by more than 100,000 kids.

In this conversation, you’ll learn:

  • How a strong mission can cause business challenges, and how Craig has overcome these
  • Why having a compelling purpose can be a nightmare when it comes to hiring (and what to do about that!)
  • How to create competitive advantage by going DEEP into your sector's underpinnings
  • Managing the transition as the company grows
  • "Grill style marketing" approach to finding unique opportunities
  • Challenges of operating in a resource-constrained startup environment

"We have to go three steps deeper than everyone else to find the nuance to succeed."

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Resources/sources mentioned:

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Transcript

Craig Lund
I took the job in banking because that was what I was supposed to do. It felt like coming out of college, that was one of the best jobs. This is back in the early 2000s. and I was just told that was what I was supposed to do. And I think that kind of playbook of Lively next, like, rig on the ladder that usually somebody else has defined that rig, not yourself. For me, in the strange turn of events, I, in the middle of that investment bank a couple of years, took a job in Iraq working to the for the US government.

Richard Medcalf
Just argued my way into that position Welcome to the Impact Multiplier CEO podcast. I'm Richard Medcalfe, founder of Xquadrant, and my mission is to help the world's top CEOs and nurs, shift from incremental to exponential progress, and create a huge positive impact on our world. Now that requires you to reinvent yourself and transform your business. So if you're ready to play a bigger game than ever before, I invite you to join us and become an impact multiplier, CEO. Sometimes we think that having an incredible mission is a panacea that it almost solves all of our problems in terms of recruitment retention, purpose, hiring, etcetera. But in this conversation, I speak with Craig Lund, who's the CEO of MyTia. MyTia is an incredible app that's used to actually help children improve their emotional response to stressful situations. Brilliant idea, and Craig talks about that journey, but he also explains how that very mission that is so important to him and his team actually have downsides that you don't actually get in more mercenary profit driven companies. So if you're on a mission or you wanna have a big mission, this is an important episode to listen to so you get a balanced understanding of the benefits and the challenges of being on mission.

Richard Medcalf
Enjoy this conversation with Craig Lund. Hi, Craig, and welcome to the show. It's great to have you today. Yeah. Thank you. Have a Merryacher. great to be here. So I'm gonna dive straight in. What I know about you is that you started your career in investment banking, fast forward a few years, and here you are, I the founder, a co founder, and a chief executive of my tier, which is a digital health company. I know that you're somebody who is on a has a mission. It has a sense of purpose and is doing this to create an impact, fulfill impact driven business. So How did you kinda move from one world, that world of finance or, you know, the being chief commercial officer in the business before, you know, into this real mission driven mindset? What was that Jenny for you. Are you saying investment banking isn't, mission driven?

Craig Lund
I mean, I I took the job in banking because that was what I was supposed to do. It felt like coming out of college. That was one of the best jobs. This is back in the early 2000s. And I was just told that was what I was supposed to do. I think that kind of playbook of probably the next, like, ring on the ladder that usually somebody else has defined that ring, not yourself, For me, in the strange turn of events, I, in the middle of that investment bank a couple of years, took a job in Iraq working for the for the US government. just argued my way into that position for whatever reason, I think, feeling trapped in a Wall Street office, not necessarily wanting to be in that in that job and realizing that very quickly. And then it really was almost like a defining moment that I think about where I was in Baghdad had been there for about 6 months. I was starting to think about my transition back to New York. And had a bunch of private equity firms that were sending me emails and hoping to interview me and actually was doing a few interviews, literally staying in at Sedan's Palace, in a conference room, all of a sudden, with I remember the specific interview was 1st Reserve, which was like an oil and gas p for in Greenwich, Connecticut. that somebody had worked with at the bank had recommended me. And we're in the middle of the interview and they a rocket literally hit the building. So The whole building shook. The alarm went off. I, you know, dutifully made my way down into the bomb shelter of the basement. in the sound strange, but I think humans are incredibly adaptive and flexible. At this point, it happened so many times. It was a bit second nature. And so I went back up and then I called back in to the interview 30 minutes later. And the the I can't remember his name, but the gentleman on the line is interviewing me asked me a question to the effect of, you know, whoops or what? What stocks are you interested in, or if you were to make a pitch to us right now, the stock to invest in which stock would that be? And that question just struck me as so ludicrous given my current situation. I I honestly in that moment, I sided, that was it. I was it's like, I don't wanna do this. Why I'm why am I on this call? And it was just one of those clarifying moments in life. And I really never looked back from that. So I killed all my interviews with all the other finance companies. I actually told the bank that they'd been very nice me and Kai had given me a leave of absence. I told my boss, Michael Johnson, he was the head of the group at Deutsche Bank at the time. Really appreciated that, but I would be coming back, and I would happily serve out my remaining analyst to her when I was I was going to move on. only cost me some few dollars in that in that bonus year. That's okay. And then from there, kind of started the journey of trying to figure out a bit of cross elimination of what I wanted to do. I'm happy to go through that. Some of those interim steps, if that's helpful or but that that was gonna -- What what he thought forward. So, yeah, so so what was if you like? I mean, I'm sure there are various points on this journey, but what was again the pivotal moment that make you say, you know what? I'm gonna build my tier. Yeah. So, I mean, I was 30, what was I, 30s? I was like, I'm approaching the age, or this is gonna become too hard to do to start something on my own. So I was like, am I mid, late thirties? And I said, man, if I don't do it now, when am I gonna do it? I was still single. So I think I just got out of a relationship. So I was in a name like stage where I could take risk, and I've had felt like I've learned enough and been the number 2 at a couple companies Then he said, okay. I wanna go figure out something out. And so that started a process where about what about a year. You know, I was thinking about different things I wanted to do. It all started to kind of point back towards mental health education, kids who's, like, a main focus. And I literally just kinda walked the earth was talking to different research groups, looking at different applications and med, the team at Boston Children's at the time, And it did feel like one of those moments where it all coalesced on a single idea where they had been working on these video games that effectively operated as therapy for kids. instead of ordering a child with heroin therapist, you give them this video game experience that is kind of interactive therapy. They worked on a prototype. I got really excited about the prototype. saw the opportunity. And then almost, like, commensurate to the week. My nephew who was about six years old at the time had one of these really, like, big emotional outbreaks on Disney World can get on a ride. Huge, I mean, huge offers of anger from your young child, which if you've ever seen it, is a very very jarring experience to see a young child and that much pent up, aggression.

Richard Medcalf
And so it was this, like, personal align with the professional interest that really collided at that moment, and I just decided to go for it. Yep. Yeah. It's interesting, though, because it wasn't like you had a child, and that was, really intimately part of your world at that point. You're a young single guy and but you kind of somehow you think just came these these events Oh, yeah. I think the it's conspired.

Craig Lund
I generally, maybe a bit. Like, I try to take the long view just on my own thinking, not only about myself, out a variety of things and wanted to and I had done the prior 2 things. I'd done roll things that I felt passionate about solar technology. 1 was around antibiotics, SIP stability. So stuff that I thought could at least bend bend the world in a in a slight positive direction. So I I was looking for stuff like that. filed an area I really liked, but that also had, like, like, nephew was incredibly close with. He was watching my sister's struggle with trying to get access to care seeing my nephew fight every tooth and nail to not sit in front of a therapist. He actually was one of our first, like, pilot gave us. He and I used to play. It's a really kind of beautiful way to connect with him and then also to think about a way to scale this, reach millions of kids. So, yeah, that all kind of oddly not a believer in fate, but I'm a believer of serendipity and interesting collision of of of events in the world that all kind of came together in one moment.

Richard Medcalf
Yeah. and it's great for dip because I know that MIT now has, you know, served over, I think, 100,000 kids giving them access to to mental health care, which is which is amazing. And what I heard, what I understand is that this is really attracting a lot of people. Right? A lot of people really get behind mission of solving these mental issues in nonmedical ways, if you like. Right? I mean, you deal with it through through games and through other ways rather than giving people drugs, which I'm sure inspires a lot of people. So what's the was this some of the downsides of this? because we were just talking a little bit earlier, you know, around, like, it sounds amazing, right, that you're on this kind of impact driven business. a lot of people are passionate about it. You know, you know, is there any downside? Right? you know, often the story we like to tell ourselves is that, like, impact driven business is everything that, like, a, quote, unquote, normal business is, you know, like, a just a finance business. Right. It's, like, even better because you've got the financials, but then you've also got the purpose. And so what could be better? Right? So have you have you encountered any downsides in that, or would you say, no.

Craig Lund
No. It's literally just in every e easier more than in every respects, which might be a good answer. Yeah. No. I think there are 2 tensions or or or trade offs to the come to mind. 1 is the Red Island, frankly, like, the financial architecture of the business. Right? So if you claim and be wrestled with this whole time. If you're in this to help kids, how can you charge $40 a month? Like, how can you justify some of your pricing? How can you could justify the return? And I do think so there that's one. I'd say almost around, like, business model pricing structure, the profit motive, if you will, how you think about that. And then the other one I do think is around hiring and culture. And so I'm happy to unpack those probably the the the hiring and culture 1. Yeah. I think you know how we're talking about this. I think there are almost 2 trends. On the one hand, and I kicked this off. It happens in startups. You have this kind of, like, bimodal age age experience distribution. We do really well at attracting really young people coming out of school, have, you know, lower financial burns can take more risks, just more oriented that way. We do really well with mission attracting really young people at that stage. I think what's often happened with the kind of middle and more serious executives is They get so excited about the mission that they argue themselves into a job that maybe isn't the right fit. Enough that we've made a bunch of bad hires, I would say, because of that trend. you know, if you're running a mercenary business, it's just all about making money. You're just you're not gonna have that problem. Right? And especially when they're in sales and marketing, they know how to put they know how physicians themselves. And so there are really part time, especially in the marketing front where I say, do you really understand, like, what it means to be in a startup? Do you really understand at least act like some of the challenges we face. Do you really understand how to operate in a resource constrained environment? And you get these talented executives that know how to say yes in a covelly way, but it turns up because they're so passionate. They wanna, like, pour all that energy into this new mission, and it turns out to be a disaster from a HR to outstanding.

Richard Medcalf
So if knowing what you know now, what did how would you do that differently?

Craig Lund
We have become I mean, we continue to iterate on our hiring process, but I would say we have become much more rigorous, not only on trying to align. It's like size of company. Does this person really know how to operate in these stage of company we're at? which has been the source of a lot of our bad hiring. Somebody's worked at larger companies. Maybe they've touched smaller, but they've never really worked with syrup. And then also so there's the fit on the kind of culture stage size, and then there's the skill set fit. So we have, and I'm happy to go into much detail you'd like, but we have much more, like, interactive, stressful team interviewing process. We also force people into exercises, very tangible Ready drawn out exercises. We force them especially for senior leaders to interact and problem solve with teammates. So we actually put them in a room to solve a problem. that requires a lot of these trade offs we're alluding to where you don't have a tenant resources that you have to think creatively.

Richard Medcalf
So as much as we can, try to strip away, a, the the the selling that they can do in a more face to face standard culture based interview and put them in scenarios that honors whether or not they truly can fit the job. Yeah. That's a that's a well, it makes a lot of sense. Right? I guess because Right? It's easy to kinda say yes and and get excited and and and demonstrate that emotional connection to a mission. It's easy to be used to do like, I, you know, like these people, they're talented and interesting people. You wanna spend your time with them. Right? It's a it is I do think it is a particular issue, especially with vision. And do you think that the issue is that they they they're waiting other people to do the not like they don't wanna roll up their own sleeves? Does that tend to be the kind of the fundamental issue, or is it that they Yeah. The it seems too small try for them, the things they're being asked to do, or the -- I think especially in early days.

Craig Lund
And this has been kind of an overused concept is like 1st principle thinking of really getting to the root of what is gonna drive success, like, really understanding something. I think when you're a startup, like, for us trying to tackle health care, we've had to get incredibly nuanced how the heck to actually make mightier fit into the health care system? I mean, arc digging into arcade details, asking 3 questions beyond what is humanly, like, makes sense. Like, just going, you literally have to I mean, I there's, like, that mentality where you just have to be so hungry and curious because I think if you don't go that second or third layer down, you may miss the nuance. I don't wanna be over hyperbaric. There's the difference between making, like, mightier work in health care or not as an example. And I think there's a that's so that's a personality I'm not sure that really depends on your experience level. I think that is a bit of a personality trait that we tried on nurse. And then there's a question of, okay. So say you have that personality trait, Are you willing able or open to actually operating in a very lean environment given where you're at here for here? Got it.

Richard Medcalf
And Craig, so you you talked before about this first one, which was around, like, if you're doing it for the kids, how can you charge so and such such and such? So where does that show up? Does that show up, like, in your in you in you? Like, do you go, like, should I really be charging for this, or does it show up in your employees or in potential partners or, you know, where where do you see this this question come up? Yeah. Everywhere.

Craig Lund
Good stuff. And that's where, you know, my job as the co borrower CEO, I write this document that I call the I call it the MIT Archer Norris. and I updated every quarter. And I tried to just hit this stuff head on and not, you know, not hike from it. I guess I am more of a I come at this and maybe because in a way, I like solving systems of of intellectually interested in these following these problems. I had a personal connection through my nephew, but I don't have, like, a child. Like, I'm not I'm not so deeply emotionally, like, pulls down into this, if that makes sense, that it almost gives me at least one layer where I can think more like a systems level. And so I think this is how I think about it. I when I say this to the team, Openly. Right now we know if we charge $40 a month, we cannot serve all families. We know we're gonna bend higher socioeconomic. But my argue my argument, I sit up in front of the company and I I make this argument is that if we don't figure out how to make a financially profitable business model to serve those families. There's no way we're ever gonna be able to figure out make MITRE available and accessible to, let's say, families on Medicaid. And so the strategy has been to hope to focus and be honest about the financial need to show a provable scale of a model there. And then to try, and this is where I think we do bends. We then try to find. We're probably more proactively try to find channels and business opportunities that can serve kids of, without without leads. there may be a little bit of a, honestly, a little bit of attention there. Like, in a purely capitalistic, makes as much money as you want models we be chasing after Medicaid as much as we are? Maybe, but it's also easy to kind of delude yourself into that because it's also a way to make sure your mission is being upheld both in your eyes and the eyes of your teammates and stakeholders. when I get the question, I get us on the team, Paul, you know, all the time.

Richard Medcalf
I hope you're enjoying this conversation. This is just a quick interlude to remind you that my book Making time for strategy is now available. If you wanna be less busy and more successful, I highly recommend that you check it out. Why not head over to making time for strategy.com to find out the details. Now back to the conversation.

Richard Medcalf
And and how do we respond to that? Do they kind of they kind of accept it? Do they, It's a constant push and pull.

Craig Lund
I mean, really. I mean, I think it's like, So we we would do things. We did some, like, pro bono charity work. So we had a more specific card ads Here's our business. We need to figure out a financially liquid and scalable model. You're also going to dedicate some of our time to We did a partnership like a boys and girls club. Very clearly mission oriented brand centered activities that look mightier in the hands of kits. that we acknowledge we're not going to make money or just open about that and seeing that as a way to had a round out or or make our mission more than just some talking point that we're gonna get to 50 years. You know, because there's always that danger you say. Eventually, you know, Rivendell, we'll help the kid, you know, the kids without meetings or the resources who've worked my year. That's a dangerous game. I think you can play. So there is an interplay here. It's always attention. We've tried to balance that by doing some of this more pro boner work. and then also pro I'd say prioritizing finding channels like Medicaid, or we could potentially do both good and well. And I I really believe Medicaid is that opportunity for us where we can both reach a lot of kids, help a lot of kids, and build a really successful business. Yeah. Thank you for staying. To be honest about those challenges, I think it's it's really it's helpful to kind of see that from the inside view. I think it's really insightful.

Richard Medcalf
What's been your success formula? you know, what's what how have you done this? Right? Have you built this business, you know, the startup with which is has is scaled and is making a difference, you know, from the ground up. We're like, what would be your kind of I've always been various things, but what's your go to skill? Like, what's what's the area where you think, you know, what? This is my kind of secret source that I've been able to deploy in this. This is my kind of reason for success.

Craig Lund
Well, I think the the the truth I try to embody the most is I'm I'm, I am relentlessly curious. And I think Culture starts at the top. And if you don't if you don't model it, it's just these so many companies that write their culture tenets and They sound great. They're on a page, and it's actually worse if they're on a page if, especially, the CEO isn't living, though. because then they're then you're a then you're a hypocrite. So I would rather have fewer tenants in terms of what we wanna do and really lift them. then have a long list that just looks hollow and empty and then build sentences inside the company. So I think that I'm I'm a kind of place in most most of those tenants, like, generally kind of things which nobody could seriously argue against anyway. Right? Like, -- And that's sort of the problem with it. yeah, sort of the problem with them is they're not they're just cliche often. And then and then because they're cliche, they feel hollow and So we try to be very I'm a fan of very blunt, the candid language. Like, the world is filled with so many fluffy words and so many euphemisms. So we try to just not only have a tenant, but also, like, say, what does it mean in practice? What does it look like? Here are the 5 examples of what that could be. So I'd say for me personally, especially in a startup, I think that's something I'm very good at. I'm good at, like, looking at ambiguity and saying, and not being afraid of it and, like, being curious about it. And then believing which one to frame it both to myself and loop team is I'm kind of like macro confident and microcombos. So I'm macro confident that we can figure this out, but I have no idea how the heck we're gonna get there. and I don't wanna pretend to you or anybody else that I know all the steps to get there. But I do feel like there's a there there. Like, I have, I mean, we have conviction about the general direction. And that's a, again, a daily daily attention to kind of balance that macro confidence with the humility. because if you have no confidence about where you wanna go and what you wanna do, then you have no direction. But it's your over precise and confident in how to get there. I think You both stifle people's curiosity and how to figure it out. And you also, I think, often leads to bad outcomes.

Richard Medcalf
If you try to pre prescribe here you wanna how you wanna get there. Do you find that you're in the part of the business that you're in or the phase of the business? Is that Is that a phase where you need to be particularly curious because you're exploring this business model and the and so forth? And the whole organization needs to be like that.

Craig Lund
Or is it that you're actually kind of, like, in that role where you're the one being curious there? What else is in execution mode? It's a good question. I I I think is a as a realistically, as a company, I think you need the right balance between the 2. Right? I think for the stage we're at right now, I think we need a relentless security CEO. In 3 years, maybe not, or even And I and I have this. I've said this. I've stood up in front of the company and said, I'm not sure I'm the right CEO in 3 years or 5 years, and that's okay. I think we're at stage wise because there's so much gonna be unity to work through as we continue to scale and figure out some of these challenges, especially around, like, how to fit mightier health care, which is a very challenging problem. I think I need to be that type of CEO, and I think I need to model that. And I think we need a a strong portion of the company that's thinking and operating that way, 20, 30%, you know, and then Yes. That's balanced, but people who are more focused on execution. But I think that I think that's well, it's an interesting question. That that shift will evolve. But I think that often leads to, as we know, companies that go through more of an executional scaling leadership change that often Stifle innovation don't There's a ton of bloat. I see it happened in all these all these kind of, like, scaling businesses that you're a victim of your own success. You start making all this money. You start hiring all these people. You building all this bureaucracy. And then next thing you know, you don't know how to innovate anymore because you've lost that relentless curiosity. So I think managing that transition, and I think about that a lot. We're not quite there yet where we're getting to 500 people, a thousand people. But I think that it's gonna be a tricky thing to to to navigate.

Richard Medcalf
It's interesting. One of my one of my clients, part of my CEO community, I think he he's launched already. I don't know how many businesses, like, 3 businesses in the last 3 years, and he's still famous to roll out a new business a year based. He's on this kind of relentless curiosity that you embody as well, and that he's definitely doing what you're doing, which is clicking in several layers deep into the nitty gritty of his industry, which needs a lot of innovation and is identifying new business models, new ecosystems, National Rio. And and that's how he's creating a huge value, but he knows very clearly that he's not, yeah, he's got a great CEO who helps run some of things because he's not operationally inclined to wanna manage a large team and, well, he can kinda do it, but he doesn't if we're not in his sweet spot when he's there.

Craig Lund
Yeah. There's an interesting question about you personally, but then there's this broader question that, like, as a company evolves, if there's a, you know, golden goose there and you've, like, cracked these codes, you need to just lean into that and execute. But how do you do that in a way that doesn't create load your accuracy, too much bloke, bureaucracy, an executional overhang that you lose the culture of relentless curiosity inside the company. Yeah. Exactly.

Richard Medcalf
So let's look forward trade. So what does multiplying what impact look like for my tier? Like, what, you know, where would What's the next level for for this business?

Craig Lund
I think we are I think we have the opportunity to make mightier a given, you know, I say, like, table stakes for every every insurance plan, especially all the Medicaid plans, every child on Medicaid, I think we have the opportunity to make money available to every single one of those kids. And then on the more commercial health care side and employer side, I think that'll come along as as well, but I think the the biggest opportunity we have right now is 40% of kids are on Medicaid, which is the stat most people don't know. which is a shocking statistic. The disproportionate level of need for Medicaid is is much higher And, obviously, the resources aren't necessarily there, and there's a lot of stigma around traditional mental health, like, taking your child and putting in front of a therapist. So that is kind of like when I stand up for an company, put a map of the company and say, we should be in every single one of these states. Every single one of these you know, 40,000,000 kids that is on Medcalf should have access to that bite either.

Richard Medcalf
But, yeah, hat's, that's a great goal. Right? And that's, it's a it's a specific as well. Right? because it's really, really focused. And so you know when you've done it, I guess. What what about you personally crave? Like, how are you gonna need to shift how you operate if you're gonna you know, be the CEO that make this hap makes this happen, you know, what's going to be to shift in your own personal way of working?

Craig Lund
Yeah. I think this, he tension we just talked about, which is my I'm I'm somebody with a meeting is gonna push and ask, you know, 50 questions down. Right? And I think and try to, like, open things up. So open things up, open things up, open things up. And I think let's say this, for example, Medicaid, we are gonna do we're doing rollouts at Arizona, Iowa, and then flated followed by another 18 states. Once that is, what's your kind of in that phase? Let's say on that business. it's gonna lead less, you know, every day opening and more closed execution. So I think from a team standpoint, knowing that about myself and the team, hiring probably a strong, very strong and more experience. chief operating officer and style person. And then I will then likely ship more time into either following products, markets, experiences, that we should be figuring out. So have not section off the opening, but, like, create an organizational structure that allows open in other spaces while we execute on things that are very, very strong product markets, very strong demand and growth happening, where we need more pure execution. But there is, you know, I I for me personally, to be honest, I don't know if if, like, I want to be in this role and that type of environment. We'll see. I think that, unfortunately, the jury is still out So I'll just I'll just have to learn and iterate as we go. I can tell you personally, the other thing that happens, I think is, you know, when you're a CEO of, like, a company, the amount of energy you spend on external communication as well as internal people management, which I do think I'm a pretty strong manager. I think I'm good, but I get to personally with people. That way indexes on that side in the amount of time you can do more of this kind of, 3 exploration and creativity gets shrunk. So I think that's gonna be attention of the same 3. Personal. Yeah. I sense that. Yeah. That that creativity and and innovation sounds like a a core strength, right, that is how you've written the value. You don't. Yeah.

Richard Medcalf
Yeah. And ind of scaling the messages is a necessary before repetitive tasks and weights.

Craig Lund
Right? wich might not so much. Yeah. Mind not waste. Yeah. I don't really I don't wanna be I don't care about being statless. Right? So I don't I don't know. I don't I don't I have z I have zero exaggerated just to be, like, over of of Forbes, you know, running to the mast of the human. It's just not stuff. Oh, well, you wanna see it.

Richard Medcalf
You know, t's just one. Oh, that's it now. Yeah. That's it. Everything else will be downhill. So I think worry about. Okay. Well, hey. This is, you know, this is in the front conversation. I I really appreciated, you know, your Yeah. Kind of opening the component a little bit on what it means to actually be building out this kind of a business where there are questions around Yeah. About how do we even charge, give them with our mission, and then there's a biggest mission, but we need to write some and we need to figure out the model. about hiring, you know, how do we actually make sure that we don't just over index on enthusiastic, interesting people who are really excited, but what we do but actually make sure that people who are actually able and willing to operate in a particular constraint, the constraints that we have. And then I think this this question around I think this really great point around finding those opportunities by going through clicks deeper into the details. I think I missed that. A lot of people kinda look for the surface answers. I've been amazed here as speaking with my clients, actually, sometimes about, yeah, they've really gone in that really looked at things and they found things which people haven't spotted, right, and that is the opportunity very often. if I this is the area we -- That's kind of your only shot as a startup. Right? It's like the incumbents are operating 1 to 2 levels down. They're not up every day asking through the form layer. It was deep. if you don't do that, how are you gonna beat them? Yeah. And that's that's a grill grill style marketing. Right? It's like, what grill a business building doing the things which the other don't do because it's, it's hard work. Right? But you find the you can find them. So thank you so much. I really wish you best, the best in this business, Greg. we want to find out more about you or about my tier, you know, where do they get to do that? Yeah. miter.com.

Craig Lund
Come check us out because you've got families, in need in your orbit, always always happy to provide service there. And then as a as a shameless blog, if you know, people on the health health insurance plans, Medicaid, commercial that people think might benefit from mightier I will happily accept, you know, any any invalid email as well. So am I happy to give my personal email? It's clundlund@mideer.com.

Richard Medcalf
Perfect. Well, thanks. Thanks, Greg. wish you all your best on your, on your mission to make my kids around the world. Thank you. Alright. Thank you so much, for sure. Take care.

Well, that's a wrap. If you received value from this conversation, please do leave us a review. on your favorite podcast platform. Would deeply appreciate it. And if you'd like to check out the show notes from this episode, head to export drink.com/ podcast, where you'll find all the details. Now, finally, When you're in top leadership, who supports and challenges you at a deep level to help you multiply your impact. discovered more about the different ways we can support you at xquadrant.com.

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