S2E8: Leadership Lessons For Challenging Times: Bhavesh Vaghela, CEO, Singula Decisions

Note: this transcript is automatically generated and only lightly neatened up. So this should be used  only to get the gist of the conversation and any transcription oddities should be ignored!

Richard Medcalf
Hi, Bhavesh

Bhavesh Vaghela
Hey, how you doing?

Richard Medcalf
Great. Thank you. Good to see you. And thanks for joining me today.

Bhavesh Vaghela
No, thank you for inviting me.

Richard Medcalf
So as you know, we're talking today about leadership lessons for challenging times. It's been a challenging time for all of us this year, the COVID year. But before we dive in, let's just find out a little bit about you. Do you want to give people just in 60 seconds or so? The elevator pitch, right? Who is Bhavesh? And what is singular decisions?

Bhavesh Vaghela
So who am I? I'm a b2b marketeer. That's my passion. I've worked at various software businesses, over the last 20 years, been acquired multiple times pretty much marketed different software around the world. So I, you know, I've been a CMO and support various software businesses, as I said earlier, I've been CEO relatively new, about two and a half years into my first CEO post. And the company I work for, it's called simply decisions, as you mentioned, what do we do? Well, we help subscription based businesses find and execute perfect growth strategy. So that's all about you know, if you're a pay TV or an OTT service, we all have, you know, probably Netflix, Amazon Prime, and all those types of companies. What we're about is about helping those those brands, and really understand their subscribers to try and drive growth. And we do that through technology, through data and insights. And we do that through people.

Richard Medcalf
That’s it. So yes, so subscription services, lots of people doing things you need to understand who's doing what, how's it working? Where are the opportunities in the business where are the insights? Who's churning? Who's ready for upselling? Who, why are people coming on? All those kind of things?

Bhavesh Vaghela
Yes, absolutely.

Richard Medcalf
Got it. Perfect. And so why don't we just dive straight in I know, you know, you're running a company, you say, is to be a trial by fire, right CEO a couple of years, and you get COVID? I know, you have about 150 people in the organization, right? So there's a lot of people, you know, people whose livelihood depends on you, to some sense, and your customers around the world. And then we get into this unparalleled moment in COVID. So what if you just look back, and obviously, we're not out of it yet. We're recording this in the autumn. So we've had the lockdown period, we've had the summer a bit of a breather, and now we're having this kind of second wave or concerns about that emerging. As you look back so far, with the perspective that we have, what's been your top leadership lesson? What's been your top learning point?

Bhavesh Vaghela
You know, there's been so many that, you know, you kind of look back on, and I, I think my biggest lesson, really is about being close to your people. I think that's probably the biggest thing. I mean, there's so many things you can do with customers and make sure you maintain customers, you know, try and when you're busy, all that stuff is great. And it's very challenging. But the reality is, you know, you've got 150 people, they're all worried or stressed, they're all having to go through lockdown, like you are as well as an individual like I am. And I think my biggest lesson really is, and I think it's one of the biggest achievements really, is the fact that we have, I would argue, have a stronger team now as an organization than we arguably did before we walked in. And that's mainly because, you know, we've maybe seen it, it's the British spirit, we kind of cope together and realize as an organization, as people in our organization, we have to help each other, we have to help each other through this process. And at the same time, we have to make sure we maintain the level of service that we have for our customers. Because interesting thing for us is subscription services don't stop during COVID. In fact, they are booming, especially payment subscription services. And we also have sports subscription services. So in that situation, they're struggling because sports has been cancelled. So you know, we have had to completely go from an office based environment, with operational staff and contact center all the way through to, you know, r&d and software development teams, and overnight work from home, and the whole company still has to perform.

Richard Medcalf
And so how do you do that? How do you bring the team closer together than they ever were before given all those constraints?

Bhavesh Vaghela
You know, it's really interesting. I mean, I used to do, I'm a great believer, I think, I'd like to think and i hope i'm right in this but I'd like to think that I'm a very transparent person. So I'm trying to be very honest with my teams as to what's going on the business and where we're heading. And you know, that is all about raising that bar continuing. So for me, I used to run kind of one to ones on a more quarterly basis, as soon as we started going into lockdown, I did one to ones every day. So I went through the whole staff pretty much over a period of five to six weeks. And I cycled through continually so all just touching base with every single person in my organization not about talking about business, I didn't actually want to talk about the business at all. Check in see how they were? That's one of the first things I did.

Richard Medcalf
And just to pick up on that, I mean, what you did there, it's one of the one of the impact multipliers that I've talked about early on in this podcast. But mastering transformation, this is a tiny micro example. But I think it's just worth picking up on. It's like establishing the habit to say, let me just get a habit in that every day, there's one person I speak to. And then once you build the habit into your diary, it's there at nine o'clock, or whatever it is in the morning, for 20 minutes, then you've implemented it. And it just becomes part of the way that you work, right? And the benefits accrue over time like a flywheel. Right?

Bhavesh Vaghela
Absolutely, you know, and we also started to do things like, you know, I challenged the team to say, look, you know, I want you to pick up the phone, or the Zoom in this context, I guess, to somebody that you've never spoken to in the business. So you don't, they're not your best friends or your colleagues and want you to have a coffee chat with them. Just random chat, checking on them, see how they are. But that person who's at the coffee chat has to then pay forward and keep on doing that. Look it wasn't perfect from day one, and you have one round and then stops, and then you have to kind of keep doing it. But that certainly helps the whole kind of mental state of everybody. I mean, we're all in the same boat. That's my biggest lesson. I think my biggest lesson is that human element, that sometimes when you're in a normal environment, you just expect people to work. And that's quite harsh in some ways, but it's just because that's the way it is. Whereas actually, now, you're very more cognizant of people's lives and the balances that they take in order to work for an organization. And I think that's a, it's a very valuable lesson. And I think as a company, as I said, before, we've got closer as a result of that, and I think people are certainly looking after each other more than perhaps in the office.

Richard Medcalf
Yes, I think every organization, every team has to really think about tasks, behaviors and learning. Very often, we totally over rotate onto tasks, I get it, I totally get it, right. Because that's to hear, you know, the rest of it. But and it can work when things are stable. But when the rules of the game change, you got to watch out about learning, right? Are we actually learning? Are we adapting? And also you have to attend to behaviors and relationships? And then do we actually, not just what are we doing? But how are we doing? What are we doing? Right? Because those things as you say, if you don't have that foundation, and people feel supported and happy and in the way it's working, then the tasks just don't get the same level of attention. If people are concerned, especially or freaked out or depressed, it's certainly not going to happen.

Bhavesh Vaghela
One of the things that we we did as well, which was a conscious decision, we do, we still have a town hall and everybody does these town halls, perhaps in a once a month. And so when we were doing that as well, in person town halls every month, but we turned them into Weekly Roundup. So every friday 12 o'clock, the company gets together, and just talk through what's going on in the week. And now more and more, it's become part of our operating week. Right? And you know, we're getting more and more people talking about the stuff they've done that week. And we're trying to really share the good stuff. Because there's so much negativity around us, you know, even the smallest thing, right? We managed to solve a particular problem, we should be sharing that because it makes us all feel we've achieved something. And really, it's again, it's that kind of repeatedness and trying to make it part of our DNA. It's certainly a big lesson for me.

Richard Medcalf
Yes, I always say if I'm taking my kids up some hill or some mountain somewhere, if they look at where they're meant to be going, they get depressed and they don't want to leave the car. Right? If they're halfway up, and they get to look down at how far they've come. They're pretty motivated to take the next to do the next bit the next hill right then the next stretch. And I think often in business, we forget that and we're always looking at, like, What haven't we done, right? What's the gap? What's the target? What's the vision beyond the next hill? How much more can we do before we conquer the entire universe? And actually looking back and just celebrating this week, we've moved forward, is actually important.

Bhavesh Vaghela
That's been a real big lesson.

Richard Medcalf
So let's move on what's been perhaps the most counterintuitive decision you've had to make or the most surprising result that you've seen.

Bhavesh Vaghela
Counterintuitive is quite interesting because, you know, to suddenly be when you first go into lockdown You know you, there's this great article I read this week where we're stuck on worrying about, you know, whether you're doing the right thing. And you've just, you know, should I have all the answers and I relate to all that because it was a very challenging time just to try and navigate your own self. And the way you're feeling, let alone, trying to get everybody else up and make sure everybody else is comfortable. And in that, in that scenario, I sat down one day and I guess you got a chance to just step away a little bit. And sometimes I looked at the team, I had in my exec team at the time, I sat down and looked at some, just some areas, which I wasn't particularly comfortable we were driving in the pace we wanted to and where we needed to get to as a business. And I asked myself the question, you know the people I have got around my team, are they the right ones? And would they be able to help us as an organization get to where our target was at the end of the year? The answer was no. When I sat down, the answer was no. And I'm thinking, Okay, now, do I make changes now? When you're in lockdown? This is particularly a bad time to do this. That decision, came with sleepless nights, I must be honest, it came with sleepless nights. But I did, I made two significant executive team changes during lockdown, which meant the workload came to me and some of the others that were still remaining. And we completely hired new people in that process, which was another interesting lesson in that time. I think that's the counterintuitive thing. It's that sometimes you're going to still make the hard decision, even in a point of crisis, because my instinct to say, no, no, no, we keep the people in stable, actually we would have come out of lockdown and we wouldn't have moved forward in the same way. So I still have to think further on as to what, where we needed to get to and I just felt it was the right decision to make it was pretty hard. And then you have to G everybody up and make sure everybody understands why you made those decisions. So that was a real counterintuitive thing. It was almost the one thing I wouldn't have wanted to do. I did. And I feel it worked out for us, it could easily be in a car crash.

Richard Medcalf
Yes, that's interesting, isn't it? I it's, well, it's breaking the board moves when the need to be made. And it's also having the instinct right to know, is this person, right or not? And I've seen it both ways, right? I've actually seen people that were going to pretty much going to be let go during COVID. And because they needed stability. They were kept. And because actually, the hard conversation happened, though, at that moment. And it was made very clear, look this is the gap that we're seeing and this is why we've got some concerns, a couple of cases they brought me in to actually support them in that journey. But, those people actually turn round, right and actually realize, oh, here's the here's the gap, here's where we need to step up. And so what I often say to people, when they're going through that decision making process is right, sometimes there is a there's a values issue, there's something very clear, sometimes there's like one thing which is off base. And actually they've got to where they are for good reasons. But there's one thing which is just undermining what's going on and that can be corrected. So I've seen it really both ways. I think it's interesting that the day the buck stops with you, you have to make that decision. And then you have to, say take it on, it might not be an easy decision.

Bhavesh Vaghela
I mean, the ironic thing is that through that lockdown period, we had people that started on the first day, we never met, never met them at all, often quite virtually via zoom. We've had, we've hired people through lockdown and who joined our team, again, completely, virtually never met anybody physically in a senior as well as, you know, different levels. And it's been, there's been a second of the counterintuitive bit, it's been it's really been a view of how do we shape the business moving forward coming out on lockdown. And, you know, I think to some degree, you're forced to think that way. But sometimes you can be focused so much on the day to day because it's so crisis, that you can come out of the crisis and you haven't actually gave yourself up towards coming out the other side. And, you know, I'm not gonna say I planned all that beforehand. That's not the case at all. But when I look back, I kind of feel we made some movements towards helping us come out in it in a better way than we walked in.

Richard Medcalf
Yes, I think sometimes there is a there's a time for laying foundations actually in a way because there's a bit of space and needs opened up. Yes. So how has this period for forced you to grow as a leader? Bhavesh, what's been your own story of growth as a CEO? In the last few months?

Bhavesh Vaghela
I mean, you know, I've been through everything, you know, everybody has been through a panic, I've been through fear, I've been through 150 people that I've got to maintain, and keep keep the salaries going. I've had, you know, there's a moment of when you stop to think too much, you really start panicking, right. And that's just human nature. And I tried very hard not to. So I really tried very hard to focus on the outcome at the end of the year. That's what I've really tried to stay true to. And I think, as a leader, you know, I feel that I've grown as a person, because I've started to relate more to lots of people within my organization. And that's helped me really think about the acuteness of the things that we need to change or drive or evolve, in order to take those people on the journey that we're trying to get them to get to. So So I think it's, it's a lot about breaking comfort zones. It's also about being honest, I mean, I remember being on one of my roundups, and telling people I had a rubbish week, you struggled this week, I struggled in terms of, you know, worried about what's going on around me and my family, you understand, and I was just, some people say you don't do that kind of stuff, you got to always remain upbeat and positive. But I felt, actually, that's me, that's what I'm going through. And actually a lot of people that are on my team is going through the same thing. And I've got a lot of responses from that. Actually, I feel the same or, you know, that was really appreciative comments. So I kind of opened up myself a little bit true in the last three, four ones. Naturally, I think more than consciously, and when I look back at it, I think that's helped me grow as a person that they feel completely comfortable with, that, you know, is heading us in the right direction. That's been a journey for me.

Richard Medcalf
Yes, thank you for sharing that Bhavesh. It's it's a powerful thing, right? When a leader can be vulnerable. Obviously, there's a time you want to be over vulnerable and overshare. Right. But there is that moment when you you take off that take off the the armor, you know, and say this is it is not always I've got issues as well, right. I'm going through that. And I know for myself, you know, I love to. I have my family story. I've talked about my, my sister's mentally handicapped, I always felt the need to be strong. I didn't realize that at the time looking back, I was the one who was like, no problem for my parents, you know, I got my good grades. I was, I think it was probably because I realized they got enough on their plate. And I carry that with me, right? I want to be the one who's sports people who helps, who's strong and competent, but I know that when I lay that down and honest with somebody, and say, Yes, but also whatever, right? I'm freaked out today, whatever is going on, then you actually connect at a deeper level.

Bhavesh Vaghela
Yes, and I think this is unprecedented times. I mean everybody was saying, you know, it's, I can't stand there and say everything's hunky dory in my life when everybody else is in lockdown when we're all in lockdown. So we all know, it's not a great place to be in that situation. So there's no point lying about it is true. And you can connect at a different level in a way. So I definitely feel it's you know, when I first got the CEO job, Richard, you kind of almost feel you have to be somebody you're not used to saying the right buzzwords, and you have to feel like I'm this strong person and I deserve to be the CEO, but actually, you learn to be who you are. Right? And that's, that's a journey that I've been on over the last two and a half years as being CEO. I remember the first six months I just felt like a rabbit in headlights as an imposter being in this role. So I you know, I've learned a lot about myself in these last 2 and a half years, but in particular, the last six months, I think it's really helped me actually grab on to the thing that I'm trying to do. Helped me ground myself in a better place than when I when I first came in.

Richard Medcalf
Yes, beautiful. Yeah. It's when we've attached ourselves to the mission, then we get out of our own way, in a way right. We were focused on what we had to you know, what, what people are counting on us for and not all our own internal hang ups.

Bhavesh Vaghela
Good.

Richard Medcalf
So looking forward, what's the challenge is going to be in the coming year, obviously lots of things coming on in the business but how how will you need to perhaps take your leadership up a step where's the edge for you in the coming year?

Bhavesh Vaghela
My edge for me is really about continue to guide and communicate and drive the business in the right direction. Now, you know, we take all the macro stuff out of the way, we still have to continue to do the things that have highest standard we can on a consistent basis. And that's very hard. Because we're all human beings. I mean, we've seen the dip, you know, when we first come into lockdown, everybody rallies around and you know, you've got the in a perverse way an excitement of getting through this, we're going to get through this. And after a while, it's still doing this. And, you know, now I'm going to try and school, my kids and all these things are going on. Everybody's struggling, so you end up with a dip. So I think the biggest challenge is going to be keeping that momentum that we built consistent, and it will come to a plateau, which is the right working pace. Because right now I think as a business, we probably are too much on one direction, which is, in a well on zoom calls all the time. People don't have the time to actually do their jobs. Because spending more time on zoom calls. We've got to start breaking our working day practices different to where we were before. So I think that's going to be a challenge. How do we work around what a normal day looks like now, such that we are productive, and continue to remain productive, while picking each other up? Because we have moments where we're down and up. We've all got to collectively help ourselves through, we do those things well, then we give ourselves a chance of delivering what we need for our clients, meaning new business and growing our business. So there's lots of challenges at that end, lots of stuff we've got to do. But in terms of just maintaining the momentum and the energy levels, is probably the hardest thing because we're all virgin.

Richard Medcalf
And there's been a dip, right? There's been the all actions or hands to the pump, you know, happened now there's a bit of a dip and people are realizing is going to drag out and they're not going to see everybody for necessarily as quick as they wanted. And I think you're right about the zoom call thing. And I've seen that, you know, in corporate world has been an issue for a while many ways. I think there's a real need to, for companies to kind of establish, to agree a rhythm. So like it might be, Hey, guys, let's decide nine to 11 in the morning. That's our focus time, this looks like we just don't do calls at that time, or whatever it is. Actually, everyone, let's all do our team calls on Mondays at 11. Because then everyone has their team call at the same time. And we don't have all the scheduling issues, because everybody's doing calls at different times, you can never get in touch with the right person, or whatever it is. But I think finding that rhythm so that people kind of are in the right zone at the right time that they know when they focus, they're not going to have to distract, you know, they're not going to have to stop a whole lot of slack messages coming in for people who are trying to get on the phone with him or whatever they know this time is kind of understood in the company. And I think if we can make that those kind of things in a physical situation can still happen but you can give more cues, more signs, you can put yourself in the office, you can put your headphones in you can you can show people that you're not available. I think those things can make a difference.

Bhavesh Vaghela
I think you're absolutely right, I think it's getting to that rhythm that the norm now this is the way we're going to work. The foreseeable, future is not going to change meaning So recently, we've seen some of our staff go back into the office, but they've selected to be on a Friday to have a team call a team meeting together. And that's it's almost flipped, right? It's flipped from being working from home maybe the odd day to now working one five day four days and going in for one day, right and other things. And that's how I see it. I've always been. And I've always said working for software companies in my life, it's always been flexible enough and somewhat I believe I'm a fan of that. However, if everybody's doing it, then you end up with zoom I mean zoom fatigue. Zoom fatigue you know, and I know what I'm like I started I seem to have started earlier and earlier, ended later and later. And I've got to start breaking that cycle otherwise, it just becomes the normal way of doing it. And that's not good for anybody because we'll burn out much quicker.

Richard Medcalf
Yes, I think it's really being clear about the boundaries and you know, that you want to put onto that are sustainable. And as you said, as well as people as when everybody's virtual with a bit of office time, the question then becomes who comes in when, when I was at Cisco, everybody, you know who they'd really made this transition? You know, 12 years ago. The problem was that you've gone so far so quickly that you went into the office, you could never find any of your colleagues because they all you know, you came in on a Wednesday they came in on a Thursday and you missed each other. And that actually is a real that actually negatively reinforces Oh, and that this won't even go in at all because nobody's ever there. Whereas actually, if you ask people that actually quite love to go in a couple of times a week and see people, but if you don't coordinate that if there's not, again, a kind of a cultural expectation, or this is unit or has always been on a Tuesday, you know, this division tends always to be on a Wednesday, then without that, it can actually be hard to get back into the practice of meeting up.

Bhavesh Vaghela
Completely. And I think, you know, that's, that's the challenge when that's, you know, if we're successful at the end of the year, it's because we've been able to come up with a rhythm for our business now. And as a half an hour, that maintains our standards and continues to improve our standards, because we know we've got a long way to go in some areas, and we've always got to continue to improve. But just because there's these things going on around us, doesn't mean we shouldn't be driving for better standards, in what we do so. But it's also difficult to drive that standard when people are burning themselves out with Zoom calls all day. And that is the challenge that something where haven't solved it in any shape or form that is currently where we are right now it is just zoom meltdown, is probably what it is.

Richard Medcalf
So, plenty more we could talk about there. But I'm aware of times moving on, let me just ask you a few quickfire questions just to get a sense of what's your world? Right? what's what's the what are your influences? If you if you're a Rock Band, right? What would your influences be? Who's the leader that inspires you?

Bhavesh Vaghela
The leader that inspires me, I mean, I could be cliche and talk about Steve Jobs, I can talk about others, but I mean, I would say, you know, the person that inspires me the most. And again, this is very cliche ish, is actually my parents, my dad is very calm, and very thoughtful in terms of what he wants to do and how he wants to do. And I've learned a lot from from that. I mean, I know I mean, I've read books from Steve Jobs and others, and you pick up bits and bobs from those individuals. And you think, well, that's amazing. You did a fantastic job. But I don't hold anybody in the pedestal that says, you know, you guys do amazing work, because everybody does a great job in the circumstances, they're in there, they're in at that point in time, you need to learn from everybody. So I wouldn't want to say I am inspired by a particular individual. I'm a big sports fan. So if you're on and asked me if I want to have dinner with I probably say Terry, Henri and Dennis, and Dennis Bergkamp, because I'm an Arsenal fan. I'd love to sit down with Arsène Wenger and understand how he thought about the team, how he built his team. And those sort of things fascinate me, but not a specific business leader as such.

Richard Medcalf
No, but I think it's great. I mean, actually, for your father is kind of a cliche, but not everybody would say that about their father, but it's also for me goes back to that thing that leadership is really influence is that proximity, and it's about caring for people, and it's about challenging them as well, right? And when you have people to do that for you, it makes a mark. What about a favorite quote, or motto?

Bhavesh Vaghela
Favorite quote, or motto, there's, there's two things that I've, I've learned along the way, I've had some fantastic mentors that have helped me along the way. And in my marketing hat on those two things that I, I kind of live by when I was doing campaigns and thinking about strategies and marketing. One was, you know, you really should not be, you know, I guess marketing to the center of the table, or going to market to the edge of the table, any of that, quote, even exists, but the notion that always push the boundaries, and continue to push the boundaries, because if you're sitting in the middle of a table, everybody else's, and so you can't differentiate. So I've always been somebody that has tried to think, how can we push the envelope, and I've always tried that. The other thing certainly resonates with me, as a b2b marketeer here is, you're not actually selling on your marketing to a business at all. It's not business to business at all, it's business to an individual. You know, I've always felt that I was taught early on in my career, think about the function on the emotional the transaction on the emotional connection, from a marketing message point of view, was actually a buyer is still a human being sitting in a company that has to have that emotional trigger, to purchase, and so I've learned those are two things that certainly has always stuck with me. And, you know, I'm a big fan of trying and failing, keep on going, keep on going keep on trying, but those two really have always stuck with me.

Richard Medcalf
Yes, that's great. They're both pretty memorable, actually. And the idea of connecting with the individuals in the business. I mean, just so funny, if you look at how so many business presentations decks, they totally miss that, right. It's totally just full of like, here's a whole list of functions that you might like to have in this product for your business and there's no real connection. This is actually a person that's meant to be listening to this.

Bhavesh Vaghela
It's hard. I mean, it's, you know, when you look at b2b, especially tech marketing, right b2b tech marketing is, is full of functions and features. That's what it is and very hard to step away from that and think, very emotionally. I mean, I am, in my firm in my very early days, working for a company I my first campaign around was around compliance news on Sarbanes Oxley times. And, you know, no disrespect to any compliance officers, but they're kind of like, accountants they're not the most exciting people. But I figured that they are human beings, and everybody was talking about doom and gloom about, you're going to go to jail if you don't do this correctly, and blah, blah, blah. And I thought, well, let's just spin it. And we created this campaign called I love compliance. And it was a, you know, I heart compliance, like a bumper sticker. 70s themed. I managed to convince my boss at the time, it was on the board, it was a founder. And I convinced them I was very lucky, actually, because he, he was okay to try things. And imagine a lot people would have just shut me down. Saying what you're talking about, that's not gonna work. It was really funny, because the campaign went out very nervous. And I got a phone call from my boss, who was just come out of the tube, and we were in London. And he was so excited. I just said, What happened? He goes, Well, I was sitting in the tube, and somebody was working on their laptop. And on the opposite side of the laptop, somebody had stuck the I love compliance sticker, branded with the company name, and so forth. So all of a sudden, they got a little bit of emotion connection. We used to have these compliance officers in banks call us up and say, Can we have more stickers? It was just really fascinating. But again, as I said, I was incredibly lucky because I worked for bosses that were willing to try things. Somebody's going to shut me down to that point, and I would have never wanted to try something new again. That was a that's what I mean by having good stuff.

Richard Medcalf
Perhaps that can be your third motto. I love compliance. There you go. Well, hey, it's been great speaking Bhavesh. Where can people find out a bit more about you? Or about Singula? How did they get in touch?

Bhavesh Vaghela
So you know, if you want to go to https://singuladecisions.com/ you can do I'm available on LinkedIn. So you can just find me there. And, you know, my contact details are there so happy to have conversations. I'd love to learn more. And if anybody has any views on subscription businesses, we can help. Maybe this one, start the chat over coffee, over Zoom during these times, again, totally open. We're happy to have those those chats.

Richard Medcalf
That's very generous Thanks, Bhavesh. Great to speak. And thank you for all your insights.

Bhavesh Vaghela 
Thank you. We should we should enjoyed it

Richard Medcalf
Bye now

Richard Medcalf

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